HDM Theory- Dust as God.

[shady]

Dust DID exist before humans because the Authority condensed out of Dust - then much later Xaphania and all the other rebel angels intervened to speed up human consciousness. Humans didn't add to the Dust count until after this point.

The whole paradox of Dust pre-existing the first conscious being while also being created by thought is explained quite well by Wheat in his book on HDM
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Philip-Pullmans ... 56&sr=8-1-
Basically to do with Hegel's idea that there is potential and realised knowledge which explains the difference between Dust as a particle and Dust as thoughts / knowledge.

I still beleive that Dust wasnt created before humans,and i stand to it(must reread TAS right now to find out more)

[kaoshoneybun]

So where do you think the Authority came from?
TAS says -

Balthamos said quietly, "The Authority, God, the Creator, the Lord, Yahweh, El, Adonai, the King, the Father, the Almighty, those were all names he gave himself. He was never the creator. He was an angel like ourselves, the first angel, true, the most powerful, but he was formed of Dust as we are, and Dust is only a name for what happens when matter begins to understand itself. Matter loves matter. It seeks to know more about itself, and Dust is formed. The first angels condensed out of Dust, and the Authority was the first of all

This was all way before humans because

Oliver Payne had discovered that around thirty thousand years ago a great increase had taken place in the number of shadow particles associated with human remains. Something had happened then, some development in evolution, to make the human brain an ideal channel for amplifying their effects.

[shady]

Who knows when was authority created.Maybe just when human became aware,maybe earlier...

[kaoshoneybun]

This is taken from: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_a ... t=0&page=1

God came into being,” he explains. “He was not the creator, but He was the first. And when other beings arose, the first angels, He told them that He was the creator and they worshipped Him and obeyed Him because He told them to.
“One of them was the Sophia — this is where I use previous mythology, gnosticism and the idea of the Sophia, the wisdom — and she advised the being that called Himself God, not to do this. Don’t rule in this despotic, tyrannical way. Let us all respect one another. Let us all be equal.
“But He wouldn’t have it. So He threw her out of heaven, together with the other rebels, and she was one of the angels who tempted Adam and Eve and all the other beings in all the other worlds in this cosmology of mine. What the serpent was bringing Adam and Eve was wisdom.”

Authority, first angel and indeed first conscious being, pre-exists Sophia/Xaphania.

The first angels condensed out of Dust, and the Authority was the first of all

Sophia & rebel angels tempt man by intervening in his evolution to the point where he can create Dust himself.
The syllogysm means that the Authority did pre-exist humans in Pullman's trilogy.

However, Gods which are created by human consciousness happens alot in Pratchett's Discworld series.

[monster8532]

I for one perceive dust as wisdom, a sense of responsibility, and self awareness. Which is why i believe that it doesn't gather around children

[AUST]

I for one perceive dust as wisdom, a sense of responsibility, and self awareness. Which is why i believe that it doesn't gather around children

Indeed, but at the same time it does fufil the 3 O's. Its omnicient (all powerful) Omnecent (all knowing) and Omeniprecent (Everywhere). It fufils the criteria to be a God, though it does make us question our perception of what a 'god' is; quite similar to the Higgs Bouson, or the so called 'God Partical'.

[Garfed]

This is a pretty big leap to make. A worship and learning differences. She really did not think that dark matter is a God, or respect her the same way, God....

[snowberry]

I'm not sure if anyone's brought this up yet, but I'd just like to remind commenters about this, which is Philip Pullman's view on religion.

"When you look at organized religion of whatever sort - whether it's Christianity in all its variants, or whether it's Islam or some forms of extreme Hinduism - wherever you see organized religion and priesthoods and power, you see cruelty and tyranny and repression. It's almost a universal law.

It's not just Christianity I'm getting at. The reason that the forms of religion in the books seem to be Christian is because that's the world I'm familiar with. That's the world I grew up in and I knew. If I had been brought up as an orthodox Jew, I would no doubt find things to criticize in that religion. But I don't know that world as well as I know Christianity." Link

"We don't need lists of rights and wrongs, tables of do's and don'ts: we need books, time, and silence. Thou shalt not is soon forgotten, but Once upon a time lasts forever."

What I'm reading from this is that he thinks everyone should be open-minded, believe what THEY want to believe and live in the now-- and to be aware of fixed religions and their 'cruelty and tyranny and repression.'

[snowberry]

and from the part about Mary's need for a purpose in the book, I think he's trying to say that we all want to believe that there's something out there, and there's reason and purpose, and that there is reason and purpose, it just depends on your perspective.