The Republic of Heaven

Key Scenes of Knowledge

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Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby kaoshoneybun » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:25 pm

Hi there. I popped up a while ago on the newbie board to tell everyone I am doing my dissertation on representations of knowledge in HDM & other Pullman writings. I'm going with the idea that Pullman suggests plural, shifting and personal knowledge is much better than the fixed & restricted ideas of knowledge represented by the Authority & Church.

At the moment I am just collecting together a list of key passages concerning epistemology in the series, here's what I've got but I'm hoping you'll tell me if I have missed any out:

(NL)Lyra’s presence in a male only room of secret knowledge
(NL) Asriel's reading of genesis
(NL) various incidents of alternative language eg. anabaric instead of electricity
(NL) Revelation of Lyra's parents
(NL?) Witches have multiple gods but accept the existance of the Authority
(SK) the creation of the knife story, philosophers not realising where their curiosity would lead
(SK?) Balthamos telling Will about the Authority lying about being creator
(SK & AS) Mary's shift from religion to science as the source of knowledge
(AS) Mulefa Eden story
(AS) Truth vs lies with the harpies
(AS) Xanaphia speech about living fullest lives in own world to create most experience / knowledge / dust
(AS) the 'sex' scene, do we have an omniscient narrator who chooses to withold facts?
(AS) ignorance is bliss - Lyra & Will's happiness is destroyed by knowledge of how spectres created & dust lost

er, sure I had more than that. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated :)
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby Philharmonic » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:53 pm

(AS) the 'sex' scene, do we have an omniscient narrator who chooses to withold facts?
would you care to elaborate on that please? i don't remember a 'sex' scene
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby kaoshoneybun » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:01 pm

There's a whole huge thread on this entitled 'do you think will & Lyra did it'.

But to sum up:
at the end of Amber Spyglass, after hearing about Mary's love story, will & Lyra share fruit and kiss (as Adam & Eve did before having sex). However, the narrator withdraws but the children are later seen bathed in dust, described as 'children no longer children'. There is also a very intimate description of Lyra & Will touching eachothers daemons which is very suggestive, not to mention the long boat trip they take together...

I'm only interested since Pullman follows Blake in often aligning sexual experience with knowledge and enlightenment. Plus its a bit odd to have an up-to-now otherwise omniscient narrator suddenly start witholding information.
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby Philharmonic » Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:42 pm

i have seen (and tried to avoid, without success) that thread, but it didn't convince me.

And i do not think the touching of another persons dæmon constitutes to sexual activity.

so lets keep away from that area-leave it to the reader to decide.


actually, someone mentioned that they did an essay on hdm and the teacher, who thought they did, said that the writers HAD to include a section on it.

talk about narrow vision-the user in question had a long time in explaining that he/she thought otherwise.
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby kaoshoneybun » Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:14 pm

I think it is funny that you ask what sex scene if you were already aware of the other threads topic :S
As for letting the reader decide & leaving the subject alone, I think leaving something alone because its difficult goes against the whole philosophy of HDM. Just because you as a reader have decided they didn't, doesn't mean you have the right to have your view heard and then ask for the subject to be dropped just because you don't want to hear opposition. I think such an immature response is precisely what the anti-dogmatic themes of HDM were reacting against.

Whether or not you believe the characters had sex still makes it an interesting topic in terms of knowledge precisely because it shows exactly the problems of reaching a universally acceptable truth. While some readers 'know' they did and others 'know' they didn't, this correlates with Pullman's tendency to show knowledge as being a subjective experience; its very effective to have the narrator draw back from an intimate episode rather than exerting complete authority over the text - after all, it is a text concerned with the death of Authority.

If they were asked to write on HDM and to include sexual references, they could have covered the evidence for while still finally concluding that their own opinion had not been swayed. Narrow-minded is refusing to cover the subject altogether.
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby Philharmonic » Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:49 pm

narrow-minded is forcing the writer to include a section on a certain topic, with one viewpoint and no arguments.

im not saying dont put in a bit into your dissertation, just for god's sake don't do the same as that teacher-please let there be a debate!



but i still think its more reader's own decision.
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby kaoshoneybun » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:06 am

I never said I was going to write they definately had sex, although if you're so keen to hear reader's own responses you'll be happy to know that as a reader I think they did & so does everyone else I've spoken to on the subject.

This has gotten very off topic. More relevant replies would be appreciated.
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby onehumaneye » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:04 am

I can't tell what your topic is except that you are looking for representations of knowledge. So the fact that it is simply none of our business whether they had sex is absolutely on topic: the touching of people's daemons by those who love them causes the daemons to settle because, seen through the eyes of love, people discover who they are.
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby Roll_with_it » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:21 pm

I don't know whether this is of any use, but can a mention not be made of the fact that Lyra and Roger had both been watched over their entire childhoods while thinking they were free? (Lyra by the Gyptians, Roger by the guy in the kitchen with the male daemon.)
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby kaoshoneybun » Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:06 am

Oooo, thank you that is very interesting...poor Lyra, none of her childhood was what it seemed!

I've also just stumbled across another gem: Mary's conversation with Dust in the Cave computer program.

The next step of my dissertation at the moment is a Jungian reading of HDM - because daemons correspond to Jung's idea of the anima / animus and Dust can be seen as a manifestation of the Collective Unconscious.
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby VMLM3 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:50 am

Hey kaoshoneybun (nice name by the way),

I have to say I've been reading over your posts so as to better understand your dissertation, and I'm sorry to say that so far I've managed to avoid any semblance of understanding of it :(.

It still sounds fascinating and I was wondering if there's any chance that you could post an excerpt. Maybe that way I can help you out.

EDIT: Well maybe I do have something for you. The last point in your original topic mentions "ignorance is bliss" and use the dilemma presented at the end of the book (can't be together without hurting the flow of dust and creating more specters). But there's another situation concerning ignorance which has nothing to do with bliss. Lyra's unknowing betrayal of Roger. All along she thinks she knows she's meant to take something to Lord Asriel, but she didn't realize until it wass too late that what she was bringing was Roger. Also remember that while Will and Lyra would have been happy had they been able to use the knife to stay together if they hadn't had the knowledge of what the knife actually did, they would've still been releasing specters and would've caused harm to the multiverse.

Also, how about Lyra's ability to read the alethiometer intuitively?
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby kaoshoneybun » Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:54 pm

Well, Sorry for such a long post but the board wouldn't let me attach a word document - below is my Final Dissertation Proposal.
I guess part of the reason no-one is exactly clear what I'm doing is that I don't concretely know for certain myself yet!!!
Since handing this in however, my supervisor has said I don't have to stick so close to Post-structuralism or Post-modernism - I can jus explore all sorts of different epistemological views that the text itself seems to suggest.
I'm going to look at key scenes and see what jumps out - so far I've already found myself comparing Pullman to Spinoza, Lyotard, Baudrillard, Descartes, Plato and Jung in terms of epistemology.

Thank you for reminding me about Lyra's 'betrayal' - I'd always felt funny about this idea - I always thought of betrayal as being a conscious act whereas Lyra seemed to have endangered Roger accidently (and therefore without blame).

Pullman’s Post-Structuralist Alethiometer:
Representations of Knowledge in ‘His Dark Materials’ and Other Writings


My overall objective is to move away from the usual focus in the media on Pullman’s religious controversy and reveal an overarching concern with representations of knowledge across all of his writing, crossing genre boundaries. I will argue that the positive representations of knowledge found in Pullman’s work are of a post-structuralist nature. This topic follows on from investigations into the possibility of gaining knowledge touched upon in the Rewriting Literary History and The Gothic courses.

Specific Aims:
To apply post-structuralist and post-modernist theories to close text analyses of His Dark Materials but also lesser known texts.
To refute Pullman’s own claim that he is not a post-structuralist.
To discover points of contradiction and failure in Pullman’s epistemology.

Primary Texts: Genre:
His Dark Materials Trilogy. Fantasy, Science Fiction, Marxist Allegory, Steampunk, Jungian Allegory.
The Butterfly Tattoo. Modern tragedy.
Galatea. Marxist Magical Realism.
The Sally Lockhart Quartet. Neo-Victorian, Detective Fiction.
The Haunted Storm. Metaphysical novel.

The central character of His Dark Materials owns divination instrument called an alethiometer (Greek for truth measurer) indicating from the outset Pullman’s interest in deriving knowledge. The trilogy is a rewrite of Milton’s Paradise Lost and the poetry of William Blake, so we can trace where Pullman’s concern with the idea of knowledge and experience comes from in terms of literary background.
Specific focus will be applied to how Pullman challenges dogmatic views of knowledge with his own post-structuralist epistemology but also the criticisms which can be made of his own answer.
A key issue I wish to address is the way in which Pullman does not restrict himself to a single genre but uses the conventions of whichever genre he is writing in at the time to explore theories of knowledge.

Draft Chapter Outline:


Introduction:

Pullman’s Use of Genres to Explore Epistemology

Brief introduction to epistemology and the schools of rationalism and empiricism; as well as arguments whether knowledge is eternal or ephemeral, pre-existing abstract or personal construct. Introduce Post-structuralist and Post-modernist approaches to knowledge and key thinkers including Foucault, Barthes, Camus, Lyotard, Baudrillard and Derrida.
Then I will explain how Pullman fits into this topic by giving a brief overview of his writing. I will describe the terms in which Pullman is usually criticised, (children’s, fantasy or atheist writer), and explain why these hindering terms must be left behind in order to fully realise the post-structuralist elements of his entire oeuvre. Whichever genre he writes in, knowledge is his inclusive preoccupation so I will address the way in which genre conventions are used by Pullman to explore representations of knowledge. For example, detective fiction is always concerned with the acquisition of truth; while working in the fields of magical realism and science fiction automatically allow for a pluralism of knowledge.

Replacing the Singular Static with the Evolving Plural


Singular authoritative, dogmatic knowledge is renounced and a plural, shifting vision of knowledge replaces it.
In this chapter I would look at how wielding of knowledge, and therefore power, on the small scale within the microcosms of the family and the University scales up at the level of the Government and Church. In exploring where we get our knowledge from we shall also decide whether the authorities who vanguard knowledge deserve such power.
By combining Marxist and linguistic interpretations, we shall analyse key passages to see whether a post-structuralist philosophy is indeed revealed or whether Pullman actually reinforces traditional ideas of singular knowledge and authority. For example, are Asriel and Iorek revolutionary replacements for The Authority and Magisterium or does Lyra replace one set of dictator father figures for another? In terms of Marxist criticism, I want to explore the fact that both of these new leaders are actually from the nobility class rather than the proletariat.
Elsewhere, we find that one universal Heaven or truth cannot be created, everyone must have their own – Asriel’s Republic fails as does the Perfect World in Galatea. The very fact His Dark Materials is set in a multiverse rather than a universe supports this.
Dust is a multipurpose metaphor for knowledge and the conclusion of The Amber Spyglass proclaims the essential need for Dust to be constantly renewed, echoing Pan’s early warning to Lyra that she should literally avoid becoming too ‘comfy’ in the University, signalling the need to carry on questioning and redefining truths and the authorities that uphold them. While flexibity is to be championed in His Dark Materials, paradoxically so is ‘growing up’ which actually leads to a fixing of the dæmon and persona.
The inclusion of marginalised sources of knowledge subverts the dogma of the Magisterium. Women and children possess valid knowledge in Pullman’s books but we have to question this constative inclusion while performatively the novels are written by a mature white male.
Pullman celebrates the arbitrariness of language by frequently offering words with alternative etymologies to our own or by refusing to assign a single signifier to a signified subject: for example Dust is also known as sraf (light), dark matter, shadow particles, angels, Original Sin and Ruskov particles. This refusal to conform to Saussurean linguistics does not lead to nihilism but revels in the freedom from restriction. The mourning for lost meaning found in Modernist texts is not found in Pullman, such a position marks his texts as a Post-modernist.

Ignorance is Bliss?

In this chapter I shall argue that perhaps Pullman is not a Post-structuralist after all by comparing passages of negative portrayals of knowledge with key post-structuralist texts which tend to celebrate knowledge despite the fact that (or indeed because) it can never be fixed.
Although he says in his interviews that he celebrates curiosity and the passion for knowledge, the content of Pullman’s novels frequently disagree. The benefits of growing up Pullman champions seem to be a poor consolation for the losses of innocence; for example, Lyra loses her ability to foretell the future and dæmons lose their flexibility. Science and other disciplines for collecting knowledge are often very destructive: knowledge for the sake of it is what leads to the creation of the Subtle Knife and the Spectres. Mrs. Coulter (whose names means ‘cutter’ in French) has a cold clinical character as a result of her morbid curiosity.
To counter this argument, the trilogy is filled with positive representations of technology; the alethiometer and amber spyglass for example. We also find that the most idyllic world is peopled by animals on wheels, showing that nature and technological knowledge can co-exist in harmony.
Another issue surrounding the acquisition of knowledge which harks back to Aristotle is whether knowledge and / or happiness are what lead to a fulfilled life. Spectres can be seen as a metaphor for depression, one of the problems caused by consciousness. But would a happiness founded on ignorance worth it? In Galatea, knowledge would actually get in the way of the protagonist’s love and happiness. In The Butterfly Tattoo, Chris’s ignorance of Jenny’s childhood gives him hope her final moments were happily spent in remembrance of her father (who actually abused her).
In the end then, ignorance actually appears to be more dangerous than knowledge, although ignorance is usually the by-product of belief in an outdated, singular truth – an argument that presents Pullman as a Post-modernist again.

Conclusion:
Pullman is of the Post-Structuralist Party Without Knowing It


In the conclusion I will weigh up to what extent Pullman can be said to be Post-structuralist and / or Post-modernist in his representations of knowledge; at this early stage, it appears that the pluralist spirit of his epistemology supports the conclusion that he is.
The philosophical alethiometer Pullman offers readers is like Lyra’s own: we are told that truth is a matter of interpretation that requires skill and hard work to master and innocent intuition can only take us so far. Knowledge gained will never be universal or everlasting.
As readers, we are encouraged to ‘dust,’ both in the sense of revisiting and cleaning off old ideas, and of sprinkling something new of our own onto them.
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby kaoshoneybun » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:15 pm

Just a quick update on my dissertation.
I've been asked to concentrate on HDM only, so not going to be covering as many of the lesser known texts as initially hoped :(

But I've written over 7000 words now and have read pretty much every secondary book on HDM going!
Along the way I have covered all these thinkers in relation to Pullman:

Aristotle - Eudaimonia
Barthes - Death of Author, writerly texts
Baudrillard
Blake
Derrida
Freud

Godwin - anarchist, anti-authoritarian
Jung - dust as collective unconscious, alethiometer symbols as archetypes, daemons as anima
Kant
Kierkegaarde
Kleist

Lyotard - Death of Grand Narratives, localised knowledge
Marx
McHale
- epistemological versus ontalogical sci-fi
Nietzche - God is dead, nihilism
Plato - Mary's Cave, Dust as the Forms
Rousseau
Satre - God-shaped hole
Saussure - post-structuralism, alternative linguistics

I would love to chat to anyone who is interested in philosophy and literature!
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby shady » Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:30 am

There's a whole huge thread on this entitled 'do you think will & Lyra did it'.

But to sum up:
at the end of Amber Spyglass, after hearing about Mary's love story, will & Lyra share fruit and kiss (as Adam & Eve did before having sex). However, the narrator withdraws but the children are later seen bathed in dust, described as 'children no longer children'. There is also a very intimate description of Lyra & Will touching eachothers dæmons which is very suggestive, not to mention the long boat trip they take together...

I'm only interested since Pullman follows Blake in often aligning sexual experience with knowledge and enlightenment. Plus its a bit odd to have an up-to-now otherwise omniscient narrator suddenly start witholding information.
They were in LOVE,that`s why the Dust was all over them,not because of some `sex`,i dont think Lyra would be capable of that
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby kaoshoneybun » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:05 pm

This thread is supposed to be about knowledge and epistemology.
Why do people just post messages about their belief Lyra & Will didn't have sex!!??
There is already a thread for that.
As I said there, I am fed up with people ignorantly saying 'youngsters can't have sex' or 'Pullman wouldn't pollute a kid's book with sex,' burying their head in the sand- yet offering no intelligent argument or proof.
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby kaoshoneybun » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:52 pm

Huzzah, my dissertation was finished and handed in last week!
This is my abstract, blurb thing, I'm happy to email it to anyone who fancies a read!
(Its 10,000 words so too long to post in full).


This dissertation explores the theme of knowledge in Pullman’s His Dark Materials, an important topic so far under recognised in the critical field. The argument found herein is that within Pullman’s work, singular authoritative, dogmatic knowledge is renounced and a plural, shifting vision of knowledge replaces it.

The introduction familiarises the reader with Pullman the author, including his literary influences and a brief summary of the trilogy’s plot. Key concepts from the trilogy such as Dust, dæmons and the alethiometer are explained as these are crucial to understanding the representations of knowledge in the primary text. The philosophical field of epistemology, or theory of knowledge, is also introduced.

The first chapter shows how His Dark Materials alludes to great minds such as Plato, Jung and Nietzsche. Jung’s influence has been discussed before but only in aligning the dæmon with the anima – we shall take this a step further, exploring Dust and the Alethiometer’s symbols in terms of the Collective Unconscious and archetypes.

The second chapter introduces approaches which will unlock new readings of the trilogy using post-structural and post-modern theorists such as Saussure, Lyotard, Baudrillard, Barthes and McHale. Pullman’s epistemology is revealed to bear a striking resemblance to Post-modern, post-structuralist epistemology as both adhere to a subjective, shifting vision of knowledge.

The third chapter will deal with the question of eudemonia: does knowledge create happiness or is ignorance bliss? The negative effects of accumulating and applying knowledge will be discussed, especially the environmental hazards of applied science and the cruel representations of curiosity in the character Mrs. Coulter.

The conclusion postulates what the impact of this study would be if applied to Pullman’s entire oeuvre.
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby AUST » Sun May 10, 2009 10:33 am

I've written a similar essay to this, though obviously not in the smae depth, at uni a couple of months ago for a subsidary modual. It was more on the modernist implications of Pullman and the influence of on 'on the marrioate theatre' and Plato as to how daemons are represented. (Is HDM a reaction against the modernist perspective on English Lit and a return to romancitism and classic (pre-Wittigstien) philosphy).

Anyways, as a few little suggestions; the way the book has a framing narrative, with it beginning and ending in Oxford with Lyra and Pan on their own. However, instead of now seeking forbidden knowledge they are beneath a tree (The tree of knowledge) and have been freely allowed into a restricted area. They are comfortable with the knowledge and yet resolve to press on.

It could be said the primary theme of the book is the persuit for knowldge; from the beginning with Lyra questing after knowledge, the primary theme of the alethomitre, Wills quest for knowledge of his father, Lord Asriel seeking to find more about God and so forth. However the whole trilogy isn't conclusive about what the knowledge is-its dosn't present us with a truth and its ideal society is by far the most primative and without conventional knowledge that we find.

Oh, and the narrator point is fantastic, I've never looked at that aspect. Could the narrator be a Nick Carraway style one, limiting what we see in order to guide our views on the characters/acvtion?
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby kaoshoneybun » Mon May 11, 2009 7:54 am

Ooo, that sounds very interesting! I would love to read it :)
Once I started my dissertation I kind of wished I'd done it on Romanticism & Pullman because theres sooo much to go on: the Blake influences, the way Lord Asriel is a Byronic anti-hero etc.
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby AUST » Mon May 11, 2009 4:58 pm

I'll see if I can dig up a copy, not sure if I've got it with me tho.

Its certainly an intresting one, I noticed a few similarities to the lyrical ballads throughout as well (Didn't explore that fully though,)
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Re: Key Scenes of Knowledge

Postby jessia » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:21 pm

if btts were taking new content, this could be great stuff for the commentaries section!
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