I dislike Lyra and Will's relationship.

[Kyrillion]

I've said this before and I know a couple of people who think the same on the board, but curious to sound out general opinion.

As a fan of HDM I heavily favour Northern Lights, partly because I think it's the best written, partly because I think the story isn't governed by allegory or moralising (to me TAS feels like the anti-Pilgrim's Progress at times) but those are topics for another time. The bone of contention I want to explain here is that I feel Will's character has a very negative effect on Lyra's character when the two meet.

Within NL Lyra is such a fantastic hero: she has a huge transition to make from bratty, barbaric innocent to a wiser, more compassionate person. At the same time, she never stops being the Lyra we love from the opening chapters: savage, rebellious, crafty and brave.

As soon as there is a male character of equal importance on the scene, Lyra is relegated into submissive, protectee. Any triumphs she has had are overshadowed by Will tiresomely trumping them (in NL, Lyra risked life and limb to ask Iorek not to kill a man. In TAS Will defeats him in single combat). She makes stupid mistakes which it is Will's job to fix (see all of TSK).

Will protects her physically and comforts her manfully. He's a strong character, and it seems there was no place left for Lyra to be strong. Her role becomes romantic interest in the style of many of the romantic interests you see these days: pretty, inclined to get into danger and a foil for the male lead's heroism, but with lip-service payed to feminism by also being annoyingly 'feisty' and 'strong-minded'.

I like Will, but I am glad in HDM as soon as he is out of the picture and Lyra reverts to something that feels as rounded and real as her NL incarnation. Even the closing scenes of TAS mark a return to form for Lyra, and I love the short story 'Lyra and The Birds' for showing us a wonderful teenaged Lyra who I can really believe grew out of the spirited, half-wild, clever girl we met at eleven in the Dining Hall.

Thoughts?



EDIT: mm, forgot that there was a 'General His Dark Materials' section. Maybe this should've gone there?

[Philharmonic]

i can't say i agree without lying. i think it's better that both of them have someone who can rectify mistakes (or do their best to) rather than hoping it works out or being pessimistic about it. And I think with two people, their characters come out more-that is to say, you can tell how one's personality differs from the others, while with just one, you cannot get this point of view. So I like it

[Ayanna]

I don't think it took away from Lyra at all, I think she was more intimidated by Will is all, and naturally this effected how she reacted around him. She was used to being the smartest and the quickest of wit, but she found Will to be unique, even comparing him to Iorek. If anything he adds to her character, you can even see evidence of that in Lyra and the Birds, she think 'be like Will', she's influenced by him to be stronger than she was. We are all influenced by the people around us, Will just acted like a boy, she just acted like a girl. There was no difference, just something to compare with when he showed up. I think they both stand as two strong characters in their own right.

[aklebury]

I guess I agree with you Kryllion, although it's not something that I thought about while reading nor something I really thought about afterwards.
I suspect it stems from an intent on Pullman's part to try and make Lyra and Will 'equal' characters.
In NL Lyra is very much the leader and she is quite well aware of this fact. She only defers to people much older than her, and only then if she respects them (ie. Farder Coram vs. the scholars). A lot of the children at Bolvangar were older than her I think, but she still ended up leading all of them. The only case I can think of where she actually defers (is that the right word??) to other children is when she talks to the older boys smoking, and actually waits for them to notice her rather than interupting them as she probably would were it anyone else. And I suspect the only reason she does wait in this case is because 1) she respects them and 2) they are a fair bit older.
When Will enters the picture, instead of having Lyra be the dominant one (which admittedly would be totally wrong for the story), Pullman trys to make them equally dominant but (I think) fails just a little bit, because when Lyra isn't dominating she appears submissive. As you said her 'true' personality does flare up a few times (particularly when Will isn't around) but Will's character does seem to smother it rather than compliment it as I suspect Pullman probably intended.

[Peter]

.
When Will enters the picture, instead of having Lyra be the dominant one (which admittedly would be totally wrong for the story), Pullman trys to make them equally dominant but (I think) fails just a little bit, because when Lyra isn't dominating she appears submissive. As you said her 'true' personality does flare up a few times (particularly when Will isn't around) but Will's character does seem to smother it rather than compliment it as I suspect Pullman probably intended.

Unless PP was making a very subtle point about strong women being - or allowing themselves to be - dominated by men? Or even an age-related point about pubescent girls.

[Aletheia Dolorosa]

Lyra also does tend (especially in NL) to have either respect or contempt for people. This probably isn't quite the way to put it, but she sees the world in quite a hierarchical way. She defers to people she respects (Iorek, Farder Coram and so on) and contemptuously ignores those she does not (the Scholars). She quickly assumes leadership of her peers, organising the children at Bolvangar to first resist their captors and then escape.

When she meets Will, she isn't sure where he fits in within her hierarchy. She asks the alethiometer, and once it tells her that Will is a murderer (which she views as something to be respected) she decides to respect him.

I've always felt that the reason for Lyra's hierarchical attitude to other people is that she's so self-assured and individual (in the sense of working best alone and not really trusting other people) as a child. She trusts her own judgment and views other people either as hindrances or things to be utilised in achieving her aims (in this way, she is very like her parents, in fact). In Lyra's child-view, everyone is out for him or herself.

I think what Pullman was trying to do was show that Lyra's growing maturity included an ability to trust other people and work with them. He might've overcompensated in this area, but I think you also are missing something crucial: Will might always be 'cleaning up Lyra's mess', but he, not her, is the reactive character. She is the active agent, driving their journey and making the decisions. She, not he,

Spoiler:

chooses to go to the Land of the Dead. Lyra decides to lead the ghosts out of the Land of the Dead. Will might be the one who cuts the window so that they can do so, but it is at Lyra's urging.

Lyra acts, and Will reacts, Lyra goes and Will follows. She's not exactly passive.

[Bellerophon]

I think Ronni made an excellent point above about agency, and I agree with Peter that Lyra's giddy sputtering might be a note of age-appropriate realism. I'd only add that any asymmetry in the children's relationship might have been contrived by Pullman for Lyra's benefit.

She's certainly an impetuous little Viking when she's on her own, which is admirable in a way, but I think that one can't become a rational, compassionate adult without learning to show caution, vulnerability and trust once in a while among equals. Though Lyra often trusted perceived superiors in NL/TGC, she never deigned to trust an equal, perhaps because she didn't appear to have any. Will is one of the rare characters in the series who can't be fitted neatly into Lyra's strictly vertical hierarchy of respect. Call me crazy, but I think that's why she occasionally seems to slip out of character with him. When he comes into the picture he's neither threatening to Lyra nor dependent, so maybe she didn't feel the same pressure to paper over her vulnerabilities with bluster all the time. I think that's healthy. She's not a Navy Seal after all, she's a child.

Perhaps Pullman's commentary at the bottom of all of this, if he intended to comment at all, is that the need to lean on someone else from time to time is not a character flaw.

[tyche]

I know what you mean. When i first read the trilogy i didn't like Will because of it. I suppose in TSK a lot of it is set in our world so everything is naturally easier for Will. I think it's not necessarily just because Will is more dominant but a lot of the book is told from Wills point of view rather than Lyra's once Will turns up which feels like Will is stealing Lyra's thunder sometimes.

[onehumaneye]

Another thing I think is that in TSK Lyra needs to learn some things. In NL the people around her think of her either as an obnoxious, uneducated brat or the magnificent Lyra Silvertongue, Child of the Witches' Prophesy. In TSK she has to start learning to be a real person. Neither she nor Will knows anything about cooperating with others but they have to learn and the result is a bit rough at times. But when Will is wounded, he can't go around bossing her as he tried to do at first and accepts her as a caretaker. As soon as he has the knife, he knows that the first thing he must do is to get back the alethiometer and she knows she has to help him find his father. What seems to me to be happening is a step by step building of a bottom up relationship of respect that will later allow their love to blossom. Still ... for me the story is about Lyra. I'm rereading TSK now and I find that the second time also I'm a bit bored until Lyra shows up in the story. Pullman seems to come to life when she appears.

[Aletheia Dolorosa]

I'm rereading TSK now and I find that the second time also I'm a bit bored until Lyra shows up in the story. Pullman seems to come to life when she appears.

I think part of the problem is that Lyra and Will are such opposites. Lyra's such a confident, active person, whereas Will is shy and sort of passive. His story arc is motivated by reaction, an attempt to avoid trouble. Lyra's story arc is a deliberate seeking-out/confrontation of trouble. It's just like in real life, almost. Superficially, people are more drawn to outgoing people, and shy people (especially in social situations) can sometimes come off as a bit boring. Once you get to know them, as you get to know Will, you find them/him much more intriguing and interesting.

At least that's what I think.

[Philharmonic]

As soon as there is a male character of equal importance on the scene, Lyra is relegated into submissive, protectee. Any triumphs she has had are overshadowed by Will tiresomely trumping them (in NL, Lyra risked life and limb to ask Iorek not to kill a man. In TAS Will defeats him in single combat). She makes stupid mistakes which it is Will's job to fix (see all of TSK).

Will protects her physically and comforts her manfully. He's a strong character, and it seems there was no place left for Lyra to be strong. Her role becomes romantic interest in the style of many of the romantic interests you see these days: pretty, inclined to get into danger and a foil for the male lead's heroism, but with lip-service payed to feminism by also being annoyingly 'feisty' and 'strong-minded'.

I like Will, but I am glad in HDM as soon as he is out of the picture and Lyra reverts to something that feels as rounded and real as her NL incarnation. Even the closing scenes of TAS mark a return to form for Lyra, and I love the short story 'Lyra and The Birds' for showing us a wonderful teenaged Lyra who I can really believe grew out of the spirited, half-wild, clever girl we met at eleven in the Dining Hall.

Thoughts?

Yes, but when the character goes down into 'submissive, protectee', doesn't the same happen to Will? Except he can't 'go down' after only half a chapter of featuring.

And I think at the end she's changed-she's not a twelve year old half wild imbred brat. She'd matured then-so I think she learned a lesson or two off Will-it said that if she hadn't met will, she'd run around without Pan, scare everyone to death. But she didn't.

I think the 14 year old Lyra grew out of two months with someone who knows the meaning of 'inconspicuous', because she goes onto the area of the roof where nobody can see (unless from zeppelin), she waits till dark to help the witches dæmon back, so I think in that two or three months with Will, she matured a lot.

[onehumaneye]

Superficially, people are more drawn to outgoing people, and shy people (especially in social situations) can sometimes come off as a bit boring. Once you get to know them, as you get to know Will, you find them/him much more intriguing and interesting.

Yes, I thought later that what I said was incomplete. I meant the beginning of the story; Will is quite interesting and complex once he springs into action. In the confrontation with Juta Kamainen it's thrilling to see him instantly become part of what his father had been seconds ago.

I have another problem with the story of Will in that his mother doesn't seem to be dealt with. It's as if PP thought, let's see, we need to get Will out on his own somehow. Compared to the intricate story of how Lyra came to be where she is, in the beginning I felt as if i were just waiting for something to happen. And all the way through I thought the story of his mother was going to be more fully explained.

[Aletheia Dolorosa]

Yeah, I think you're right about Will's mother. It's almost as if she was got rid of too easily. It is, of course, a necessity to get rid of the parents if children are to have any adventures in stories, but the way the parents are got rid of must have some coherence, at least. Lyra is given much more of a 'background' and her story has more meat on it. We can see exactly where's she's come from, whereas with Will, there are glaring blanks.

[Northen_Lights]

I agree with this. I would have preferred it if Lyra's character hadn't changed. But in the books, it's sort of all for the best (in a weird way). Maybe it'll be different in the (potential) films, and Lyra will stay as she was in The Golden Compass.

[MojaveByrd]

If they are going to change personalities and relationships in the movies (which they already did in Golden Compass), then you might as well just write another book. The point is, it's THESE books and THIS story, written by THIS author, that I like, and THESE books and THIS story, written by THIS author, that I'd like to see made into a movie - not someone else's idea of what these books should have been. If you don't like the story and the characters, then it seems to me, that you probably didn't really like the books. You don't like the way Lyra's personality changed? Well, hey, that's what happened to Lyra as she experienced the world(s) around her. Many don't like the way it ended with Lyra and Will saying goodbye forever. It was a heartbreaker. It would have been nice if it ended differently, but it didn't. In fact, it was a perfect ending. If they make the other two movies and if they change the ending so that Will and Lyra stay together, then they will destroy the whole story. IMO

[Northen_Lights]

Point taken.

[reflective]

in nl, yes, lyra is brave, ect, but she is on her own and yes, iorek does follow her mostly, but he isnt there all the time like will is.

Pullman tries to make them equal but lyra looses the brave part of her we saw in nl. now she is in our world she dosent know what to do, she is relient on will.

Yet that said i enjoy the suprises pullman throws at us everyone tries to pick out something bad, it could never be wrote to make everyone happy so im glad he did put in will

[Angel to follow]

Whilst I agree with the thread of this topic I don't think it is intentional that Lyra becomes this way. PP has to introduce Will into a book that is already dominated by powerful characters. The fact that he in turn dominates Lyra is a result of PP trying to thrash out a character that will appear as something other than paling in comparison to the others. Lyra takes a backseat because her character is so strong and well developed.

[AUST]

I disagree entirely, I think its just a sign of Lyra growing up and maturing, becoming part of a partnership and accepting that she and will have different skills and abilities, both make mistakes and both reply on each other. AFter all, its Lyra who takes Will to the world of the dead and its her who drives him to let them out; it just happens that it is he who has that power. By the same coin, when Will breaks the knife it is Lyras ability to talk to Iorek that leads to it being fixed.

[Philharmonic]

well said aust. so lyra does a lot for will as well as him helping her out when she screws up.

so how did she ever live with out him? (see NL - how to hijack a boat) i'd say they're almost like two parts of one person, much like a person and their dæmon.