A bunch of worlds, are just a really big amount?

[BenRoshi]

The multi world theory wasn't exactly explained in depth in HDM. But that was because nobody who knew the truth were main characters! So I've been thinking lately. Is there really unlimited worlds of every possibility, or maybe just thousands of diverse worlds.
I mean if there were so many worlds, wouldn't there be an unlimited amount of units you could get for your army? Just cut threw a window here and there, and you might be able to get a few countrys on your side in each one.
so wouldn't unlimited worlds be too much? Maybe there were just a few thousand worlds, each one diverse and intersting. After all, how could the angels ever hope to close up all the windows? There would be an unlimited amount!
Not to mention a huge amount of subtle knives as well. And if every decision makes a new world as some have suggested, wouldn't there be a world where Will and Lyra save dust? Did they really save dust at all? Was it maybe that the Lyra and Will in another world did the right thing instead?
Any thoughts? yeah this is confusing!!!

[Pyr]

wouldn't there be a world where Will and Lyra save dust? Did they really save dust at all? Was it maybe that the Lyra and Will in another world did the right thing instead?
Any thoughts? yeah this is confusing!!!

my. god. reread the books...they did save dust, that was sort of the point of the ending and them falling love...they did do the right thing. uh i dont get the multiple universe theory really either but i think the actual science is a bit different from the books.

[jessia]

if you want more info on the many-worlds theory... the idea was somewhat inspired by a david deutch <sp>... there's a link on my site in the chapter where the master and the librarian discuss whether or not it was right to try to poison lord asriel. there's also a link on i think the robot wisdom annotations... it was first mentioned by pullman in a readerville forum.

[BenRoshi]

[quote]my. god. reread the books...they did save dust, that was sort of the point of the ending and them falling love...[/quote
yeah I know it was them, but I was just trying to point out another one of those confusing things that could be! I mean maybe it was a different Lyra and Will!!!
oh and I'll look over that Jessia thanks.

[Rose of Sharon]

It's true that it's very confusing...but I do think there can be an infinite amount of worlds. According to the theory, every time anyone has to make a choice, even a tiny choice (like what clothes to wear when you wake up in the morning, etc.) instantly creates at least one other world exactly alike to the original except for the fact that in this world, you make the other possible choice. For situations where there are dozens of possible scenarios, dozens of other worlds are made. So therefore, there would be many worlds out there where Hitler had won WWII, where the British had succeeded in quelling the American revolution, and where you decide to have corn flakes for breakfast instead of rice krispies. From the point in time where the split occurs on, however, the worlds are separate, and therefore split off on increasingly different paths. After a while, they probably would be vastly different worlds. So while there could be hundreds of world where Lyra and Will make different decisions, in those worlds their different decisions lead the world in a path so different that it isn't even relevant anymore. Though I think since Lyra represented the Eve of ALL the worlds, when in one world she made the right choice, all of the Dust in all the other worlds was fixed as well.

Phew! I'm done now.

[Rose of Sharon]

Oh, and about the angels being able to close up all those windows...remember, angels aren't human. If they can pass easily between worlds without windows, who's to say they can't manipulate time the same way they manipulate space? They are, after all, immortal, and the amount of time it would take to close the windows would be of no consequence.

[BenRoshi]

hm good points...
If there are so many worlds that are alike, I wonder how they feel with the knife? Hm...
And what if there was a world where Will didn't destroy the knife? A world where they choose to keep a window open for themselves instead?
and if there are different worlds like that, aren't there multiple exits to teh world of the dead then?
*starts to pass out from confusion*

[Will]

If you say that there's an infinite number of windows, you have to acknowledge that there's an infinite number of angels - ergo, no real problem in shutting them all.

A world where Will didn't destroy the knife..that could happen, but the angels might eventually get around to shutting that particular window in that world. And as far as I know, the WOD is the only one-off world that exists on it's own with no other parallels.

[AySz88]

Rose, what you said is basically correct, but the many-worlds theory should take into account that in quantum physics, anything is possible (although usually very very very improbable). For example, there is one world where all of the protons in your body have simultaneously decayed, resulting in the annihilation of all the atoms in your body and a catastrophic explosion.

[Qwazzerman]

I figure that after about, say, 1000 years of the earth's existence, the worlds stopped splitting. For sanity's sake.

[Celestial Madness]

that in quantum physics, anything is possible (although usually very very very improbable)

it is impossible that anything can be impossible. so there.

[daemon]

Firstly I'll say that I'm not an expert in quantum physics; my apologies if I write any glaringly obvious, realistically impossible mistakes .

I was thinking about this earlier, and I wondered whether worlds would somehow split apart or merge together at some point. In theory, such a powerful object as the Subtle Knife may bind the worlds (containing other Wills) together when it is destroyed; thus preventing another Will wreaking havoc. That said, I have no idea what would have happened when Iorek repaired after it shattered the first time.

However, if this "binding" didn't happen, it would be quite rare for two or more Wills in exactly the same situation and in possession of the knife to go around cutting more windows in the universe. Although obviously with the apparently infinite number of worlds this could happen. I won't say anything more on this before I look any more stupid.

As for angels, I imagined them as something like the elves in Lord of the Rings. There was the incident where Frodo was being attacked at the bridge on the way to Rivendell by the Wraiths, when he saw Aragorn's Elf friend (I forget his name ) shining out from underneath the forest. Later on Frodo was told that he had seen the Elf as they appear on the "other side". Perhaps the angels in HDM are on the "other side" of the universe as it were, but they exist in both areas at once. That to me would explain how they can both travel between the worlds and also the source of their apparently self generated glow.
Although I'm not sure how I would fit that in with Xaphania stating that the angels had alternate methods of communicating with each other that Lyra and Will would be capable of. I'll stop here until I've worked out what I'm going on about; typically I've confused myself writing a forum post

[AySz88]

it is impossible that anything can be impossible. so there.

Nah, that's just self-contradicting.

[Pax's Boy]

Technically, there would be an infinite amount of worlds, and many of the events described by Pullman would be impossible.

Simply, all I have to say is that HDM is a work of fiction, and the system was invented, not actually based on fact. It may be self-contradictory, but that's okay, since it isn't real.

[eloquent]

I certainly thought it had been simplified for the purposes of literature, which is, after all, completely nessecary.

[Pax's Boy]

Well spoken! These books were written for young adults, not Quantum Physicists.

[wombat]

I think this is where we have to employ suspension of disbelief. Obviously the infinite-worlds idea is contradictory not just in this story but in real life. There is nothing to prove or explain how infinite numbers of universes can just be created out of nothing. If you think about it, the number of universes and what they are like is impossible mind-boggling: for every motion an atom can take, poof! there's another universe. As for philosophy, since EVERYTHING happens, nothing you do matters at all, because you literally do everything possible. Free will is nonexistent, and all sorts of horrible things happen. No, there is only one universe. But what a great concept to use in a story!

[eloquent]

Hmmm... I have to say that I'm rather partial to the infinite universes theory myself. Look at it this way: It is generally recognised that the expanse of geometric space outside the bounds of our universe is infinite - it has to be. Take whatever tiny probability that in, say, one cubic mile of such space, a universe will spontaneously come into existance by whatever process that occurs; you will have some incomprehendibly small value of probability. Then multiply this number by infinity, in order to apply it to the infinite expanse (the infinite ammount of cubic miles, if you like) of space. Any number, no matter how small, will always give an infinite product when multiplied by infinity. So though these universes may be hugely spaced out, this has little rellevence as there is no limit to how far they can be spread.

[Rose of Sharon]

That's an interesting way to look at it...

I sort of believe the infinite universes could be possible too because of the nature of time. We don't really understand time -- I mean, does it always go in a straight line? Einstein figured out that space and time are actually linked, so that when space curves, time sorta does too...
So if an opportunity arises where time could branch off in two different directions...(like when there are two possible outcomes to a situation) who's to say space can't branch off in the same way?

As for actually proving something like this...it might never be proven. But it sure is fun to theorize about it!

[wombat]

Time. Don't get me started on time. First of all, Einstein was wrong. His own theory negates itself: since all motion is relative, nothing can be said to have an exact speed except in relation to everything around it. Therefore, light cannot have one fixed speed, as Einstein postulated. From this was based his calculation of how time must speed up and slow down as objects approach the speed of light.
In my opinion, time is only a concept we use to measure the rate at which events occur. It is not a quality that can be pictured as a river, or a dimension, or lots of little strings stretched across the universe. The universe is by definition everything that exists--it is infinite, and who knows how many other worlds are out there? Time is infinite, and it cannot be folded back on itself or traveled back and forth through. This is, for many, a hard concept to grasp.