LO: du-du-du, Constantinople

[Will]

..still exists in Lyra's world, according to the map list. Bit of a surprise since other places - such as Gibraltar - have their Arabic names. Why didn't the Arabs take Constantinople, but succeeded elsewhere?

Also, having Istanbul as European City of Culture in 201x (I forget) is really going to smart.

[Somewhat]

It might've been even more heavily defended than it was when the Arabs took it in our world. Considering the Church is more powerful and richer there, it wouldn't come as much of a surprise.

[silversong]

Wow, you really like to discuss the teeny details, don't you? Ah well, that's what the forum's for.

I guess anything-really anything, could have left the place with that name...just too hard to speculate.

[jessia]

teeny details give us things to talk about when we're waiting for things to happen.

btw will, the turks took constantinople, not the arabs.

the name istanbul (etymology) just means "the city" apparently, so perhaps it wasn't a big deal for the L-world turks to give it a turkish name. perhaps the ottomans had adopted another ideology that made other issues more important than renaming cities?

in contrast, we know izmir exists in lyra's world (mentionned for its college ambassador's attempted assassination of lord asriel in TGC) under its turkish name. however, "izmir" is just a turkish version of the greek "smyrna" used to describe the same site during the roman empire.

[Kyrillion]

'Cos Istanbul and Constantinople are the same!'

Sorry, am I the only one who thinks of the Muppets any time they hear either name mentioned?

[jessia]

my mom used to sing the song and for the LONGEST time i thought that the west had only recently accepted the turkish name for the city and that people needed the song to remind themselves that it was no longer constantinople.

i feel misled.

[Will]

My thread-title was an attempt at the song.

I always forget the Turks aren't Arabs, though I do remember it with Iranians.

[jessia]

My thread-title was an attempt at the song.

i know.

I always forget the Turks aren't Arabs, though I do remember it with Iranians.

don't let an arab hear that.

[Kyrillion]

'Never be rude to an Arab...'

Sigh, a comedy song for every occasion, me.

[AUST]

Perhaps the Byzantine Empire wasn't so weak at this point and had retained the conquests of Justain-and force the turks to advance southwards towards Egypt? Its perfectly possible, even a poorly defended Constantinople was very hard to take and the Turks took several years despite the genius of Urban (a gun crafter), the largest gun ever made and Sultinman (SP) the Magnificant tactical genius.

There are many, many scenarios wehre it didn't fall. Indeed we estimate that had the Pope responded to the Emporers request for support then it wouldn't have falled, or had another 3 or 4 thousand men been defending it it could of survived.

[Aletheia Dolorosa]

the name istanbul (etymology) just means "the city" apparently

I always thought it was the Turkish version of Constantinople. Thank you for correcting my ignorance.

[Grumman]

From my viewpoint the fall of Constantinople was one of the major catastrophes in the history of civilization

[jessia]

please expand?

[Aletheia Dolorosa]

The fall of Constantinople indirectly brought about the Renaissance, and wasn't that a good thing?

(sorry to be trite)

[jessia]

lots of cultural developments across the ottoman empire as well...

[Aletheia Dolorosa]

Indeed, so to describe it as 'one of the major catastrophes in the history of civilisation' is a little...black and white, isn't it?

[AUST]

Indeed, unless your Islamaphobic.

The Byzantine Empire was crumbling, it had been sacked and pillage adn to be honest most of its great cultural and technological advances wehre over by the reign of Basil IV and the reconquests. It was doomed and it had only hung on because of its sheer size and the Christian (and Muslin) reverence for 1500 years of tradition-even the pope reconised it as the true heir of Rome.

Its fall was probably a good thing in terms of civilstion and cultural advancement-the Ottomans where a great people and did a huge amount of very worthwhile stuff, and it brought about the Renaissance.

[Thing_of_Things]

They went on to oppress many nations across the Mediterranean and carry out the Armenian Genocide...

EDIT: I'm not saying the Byzantines (especially at the time) were all that fantastic, nor am I denying that the Ottomans made great strides in secular government, I'm just saying...

EDIT 2: ...I guess I'm just saying it's a complex issue.

EDIT 3: Will the edits never end? Perhaps in L-World the Venetians never managed to convince the Franks to go on their fun little detour during the Fourth Crusade...

[AUST]

They went on to oppress many nations across the Mediterranean and carry out the Armenian Genocide...

EDIT: I'm not saying the Byzantines (especially at the time) were all that fantastic, nor am I denying that the Ottomans made great strides in secular government, I'm just saying...

EDIT 2: ...I guess I'm just saying it's a complex issue.

EDIT 3: Will the edits never end? Perhaps in L-World the Venetians never managed to convince the Franks to go on their fun little detour during the Fourth Crusade...

Ah yes, the fall of the Ottomans.

Thing is the Byzantines did many things like this, adn they certainly opressed there people-thing improved for a vast majority of people in the Ottoman Empires early years, admittedly as its power waned it became repressive and weak, as the Byzantine Empire did as it waned.