Harry Potter (cont.)

[Kinders]

You're all crazy! (Except Jez.) Symon is beyond help!

This happened because Voldemort wasn't ready yet. They had to get the potion ready, and I do believe there is something in the first chapter that hints at Voldemort/Wormtail having to do something.

That's a reason to wait. Not to formulate a silly and overcomplicated plan that's astonishinigly likely to go wrong just to pass the time.

If "Moody" [aka Crouch Jr] had just killed him he wouldn't have gained Harry's trust, which was important so that he would take his advice.

What are you talking about? Take what advice? Harry was supposed to die.

He couldn't have made a portkey to be used inside the school earlier, doesn't Hogwarts prevent that from happening? Otherwise students would be disappearing left and right. [although there is the flaw of being able to use one on the grounds].

Ding! Failed your own point. He made a portkey at the end. He could have done it any time he liked. He certainly could have arranged for Harry to touch it without putting him through the tournament.

And also, Crouch had to keep Moody alive for the polyjuice potion.

What? What what what? Crouch was using the polyjuice potion to pretend to be Moody, to lead Harry to Voldemort. Once Harry was dead he would have been proud to rejoin Voldemort. He couldn't have kept up the masquerade as Moody.

It's not a flaw, really. What would be the point in writing the book?

It's a big gaping plot hole. But you're right. The plot was rendered totally pointless. You can't justify things not making any sense at all (especially within a series that's renowned for it's mysteries and suddenly-it-all-makes-sense plot twists) by saying "if it made sense it wouldn't be any good". It's not good because it doesn't make sense!

Star Wars is hardly the best exmaple, is it?

[Alewyn]

You guys are all far too brainwashed to believe that your dear Joanne made a mistake. In fact, she's made quite a few. I can't stand reading the Harry Potter books, all the time I keep hoping and praying that what she's saying has anything to do with the plot, but... If you cut out all of the scenes that don't build character and don't move the plot along in HPHBP I bet that it'd be at most half its original size. Rowling was just trying to look smart, same as all of the people who brag about reading "such a long, long book...and in only 5 hours!" Well, yeah you can read it in one sitting; there's no need for you to stop and think about what she's said or consider or argue or think it through or sort it out or predict, it's a very simply written series. In fact, I'm sure that if I actually carried through with one of my book ideas, it'd be better written than HP.

It's okay if you blow up on me, I'm used to it.

[Kinders]

It's no secret that they've been going rapidly downhill since book IV...

[Darragh]

I just read the 6th book aswell as the Order of the Pheonix and I'd hope that what you say is true, Kinders, because they were uninspiring to say the least. There is just too much fluff for my liking. Anyway I will not rant about it now.

[Jamie]

It's not a flaw, really. What would be the point in writing the book?

It's a big gaping plot hole. But you're right. The plot was rendered totally pointless. You can't justify things not making any sense at all (especially within a series that's renowned for it's mysteries and suddenly-it-all-makes-sense plot twists) by saying "if it made sense it wouldn't be any good". It's not good because it doesn't make sense!

Star Wars is hardly the best exmaple, is it?

Ah come on, I'm not saying that and you know it. What I'm saying is there's undoubtedly an easier way around this but that'll ruin the suspense, tension etc. whatever. (And don't tell me there isn't any because I don't care ) However, I always thought there was one conversation that must have been cut in LotR..

Frodo: Erm Gandalf? I'm all for the Middle Earth trek that will likely end our lives but.. why not just fly the eagles over Mordor, drop the ring over the volcano from a safe height and leisurely fly back to our beloved Shire in less that 150 pages?

Gandalf: Alas..

If you cut out all of the scenes that don't build character and don't move the plot along in HPHBP I bet that it'd be at most half its original size

<laughs> wait wait.. you're the one that likes LotR, aren't you?

[Sebastian_de_Carabas]

All of the so called "Fluff" in the Harry Potter books is not just an unnecessary page stuffing. The thing that makes Harry Potter great is (amongst other things) that it builds up a world that we can relate to. It's not just a medieval wizard-tale in a lonely keep, or a Merlin/Gandalf type of Saga, nor is it a rather feeble clash of modern and magical, like microwave potions. These people are, not just believable characters and situations, but characters and situations that are so normal in it's essence that we would not be surprised to find ourselves n similar situations, meeting similar people, and we with all likeliness have. The "fluff" is essential, because it builds up a world that is at the same time ordinary, extraordinary and extraordinary in its ordinariety. A minor plot hole is not some huge thing that wrecks the whole series, because these books, like few others (HDM included) is so much greater than the sum of it's parts.

[Kinders]

Yes, I phrased that poorly. But the point is that the books are set in the Harry Potter world where people have dastardly ingenious plans and they all tie up to make sense in a delightfully crafty series of twists. The whole book falls apart because of this huge error. Of course it's more interesting this way but we're treating it like there are two options, Interesting but Illogical or Logical but Very Very Short. How about, she could have made the plot make sense (it is, after all, set in a world where she makes the ruels; she writes the loopholes) and created a reason that Harry would have to go through the tournament.

[Kinders]

All that jazz

Wow, you talk it up like it's great literature.

Not a minor plot hole... it removes any reason for anything that Moody does.

[Jamie]

Actually that's one thing (reading back over the last couple of pages) I've been severly disappointed by in the HP books. The whole portkey idea is terrible. Any wizard, theoretically (from evidence in the text) can pick up an object, say Portus! and they instantly have themselves transport to anywhere in the world? Bizarre. It's uncomfortably close to teleportation. Apparation I could deal with, just about..

[Darragh]

All of the so called "Fluff" in the Harry Potter books is not just an unnecessary page stuffing. The thing that makes Harry Potter great is (amongst other things) that it builds up a world that we can relate to. It's not just a medieval wizard-tale in a lonely keep, or a Merlin/Gandalf type of Saga, nor is it a rather feeble clash of modern and magical, like microwave potions. These people are, not just believable characters and situations, but characters and situations that are so normal in it's essence that we would not be surprised to find ourselves n similar situations, meeting similar people, and we with all likeliness have. The "fluff" is essential, because it builds up a world that is at the same time ordinary, extraordinary and extraordinary in its ordinariety. A minor plot hole is not some huge thing that wrecks the whole series, because these books, like few others (HDM included) is so much greater than the sum of it's parts.

Hmmm, I missed that obviously.

[Alewyn]

Frodo: Erm Gandalf? I'm all for the Middle Earth trek that will likely end our lives but.. why not just fly the eagles over Mordor, drop the ring over the volcano from a safe height and leisurely fly back to our beloved Shire in less that 150 pages?

Gandalf: Alas..[/color]

If you cut out all of the scenes that don't build character and don't move the plot along in HPHBP I bet that it'd be at most half its original size

<laughs> wait wait.. you're the one that likes LotR, aren't you?

We've already thought through the eagle situation. The forces of Mordor would've killed them all one way or another and gotten the ring if they just flew the eagles into Mordor. See, there was no distraction or...

Ring being thoroughly destroyed

for that to be plausible.

And yes, I realize that LotR isn't perfect, that's why HDM is my main obsession nowadays. I was merely trying to point out the fact that Rowling makes her books long just for the sake of looking intelligent.

All of the so called "Fluff" in the Harry Potter books is not just an unnecessary page stuffing. The thing that makes Harry Potter great is (amongst other things) that it builds up a world that we can relate to. It's not just a medieval wizard-tale in a lonely keep, or a Merlin/Gandalf type of Saga, nor is it a rather feeble clash of modern and magical, like microwave potions. These people are, not just believable characters and situations, but characters and situations that are so normal in it's essence that we would not be surprised to find ourselves n similar situations, meeting similar people, and we with all likeliness have. The "fluff" is essential, because it builds up a world that is at the same time ordinary, extraordinary and extraordinary in its ordinariety. A minor plot hole is not some huge thing that wrecks the whole series, because these books, like few others (HDM included) is so much greater than the sum of it's parts.

Where to begin? The fluff isn't page stuffing? It makes us feel close to the characters? First of all, I've never ever met any boy who acts like Harry and Ron do. Secondly, I HAVEN'T YELLED AS MUCH IN MY ENTIRE LIFE AS HARRY DOES IN THE WHOLE 6 YEARS. Every single person in the series is a stereotype of something or other. Never have I met someone who corresponds as much to steretype as the Harry Potter characters do. You said all that Harry Potter is not. So, what do you say it is? Yes, this book is written much as books people my age read, such as The Clique and Meg Cabot books. However, where the Clique and such get intriguining, scandalous, interesting, the friend fights in Harry Potter are always the same and always end the same and we always know how they're going to end. You also stated that the fluff is to build up the world. All that it build up for me (and many people I know) is boredom and need for plot. Harry Potter...on the same level as HDM? What are you taking, man?

[Laura]

I HAVEN'T YELLED AS MUCH IN MY ENTIRE LIFE AS HARRY DOES IN THE WHOLE 6 YEARS.

*decides not to laugh at the irony* Perhaps the teenage angst hasn't really set in yet.

Anyways, Harry Potter. Every one of the books has its set of flaws. I like them anyway--even if 4 and 5 could very easily been combined, and we wouldn't have lost any of the essential plot points.

But anyway, this bothers me:

Every single person in the series is a stereotype of something or other. Never have I met someone who corresponds as much to steretype as the Harry Potter characters do.

Characters in HDM and LOTR are stereotypes too.
Aragorn- the heroic warrior king
Sam- the bumbling, but virtuous sidekick
Frodo- the angst-ridden hero
Eowyn- the tomboy
Gandalf- the wise mentor

Tons of characters are stereotypes. It's not just a HP thing.

[kyrabelacqua]

You can't really call Lyra a stereotype, though...

I've found, that after I read HDM, I lost basically all respect for HP.
Harry just annoys me, to be honest.

[Darragh]

So since the thread is split only anti-HP posts are allowed in here and pro posts in the other one? It's not like this discussion is off topic.

Tons of characters are stereotypes. It's not just a HP thing.

Yup, it's up to the author to make us care about them though and I didn't but I'm guessing she made the main characters unlikable because they are teenagers? Selfish little gits. *Shakes fist at teenagers around the world*

[Symon]

You're all crazy! (Except Jez.) Symon is beyond help!

Thanks, mate. But I don't think I know exactly what you mean...

1)You are right about the fact that Harry could probably have died RIGHT at the very beginning, without wasting hundreds of pages, hours...BUT I like the story anyway, and without all that there would be no story. Come up with something better, I dare you.

2) Harry has to take Moody's advice throughout the entire book, and WE KNOW the entire book was a waste of time, BUT because this was the story, Harry had to get through to the end.

3) Ummm, YEAH Harry took a portkey at the end! [although there is the flaw of being able to use one on the grounds] I'm sorry I wasn't clear - the maze was on the grounds.

4) As long as Harry was alive, Crouch had to stay as Moody. Therefore, he needed Moody ALIVE for the making of the polyjuice potion. Harry didn't die, therefore Crouch had to stay MOODY therefore he had to KEEP MOODY ALIVE. Capiche?


I am fully aware that these book are NOT BY ANY MEANS as good as HDM. Or a great many others, in fact. They are not deep. They are entertaining, and I like them.

PS, I don't want to sound rude or mean in this, but I guess I do sound harsh. And I am wondering why people would put this much time and effort into pointing out all the flaws in books that they so obviously do not enjoy...

[Darragh]

Kinder's point was (I assume) that a book should not be written around a massive plothole.

And I am wondering why people would put this much time and effort into pointing out all the flaws in books that they so obviously do not enjoy...

It's called a discussion. I mean ffs, why are you putting in the effort to defend flaws you don't care about?

[Symon]

PS

Rowling was just trying to look smart

I think, actually, that she's just having a good time. But I guess neither of us will ever know!

Personally, I avoid the books and series that I dislike...

[Stargirl]

Kinders I think you're being a bit harsh, are you trying to dislike something just because you don't want to be like everyone else? the books have no depth to them, they're very superficial and shallow, but they are still incredibly addicting, which is good for a book to be, usually. I think they are great. I went through a phase when i wanted to dislike them because i didn't like being like everyone else, but it's worthless. But i do think the 5th one was mostly crap, and the 6th one had way to much sappiness shoved into it.

[All_That_Jazz]

But anyway, this bothers me:

Every single person in the series is a stereotype of something or other. Never have I met someone who corresponds as much to steretype as the Harry Potter characters do.

Characters in HDM and LOTR are stereotypes too.
Aragorn- the heroic warrior king
Sam- the bumbling, but virtuous sidekick
Frodo- the angst-ridden hero
Eowyn- the tomboy
Gandalf- the wise mentor

Tons of characters are stereotypes. It's not just a HP thing.

I agree. At least the characters in HP have flaws; they aren't perfect characters like Aragorn and Frodo, who you're meant to admire...

[Kinders]

Why has this thread been cut? It was in the "Harry Potter" thread, I don't see how a discussion on whether Harry Potter is good or not should be moved. Is that thread exclusively for hugs and kisses? (Also, now, it looks like I started a thread called "The Anti-Harry Potter Disucssion Thread"...

I'm sorry for calling you "beyond help", Symon. It wasn't meant to be an insult; I hope you didn't take it that way; just that your arguments are utterly barmy!

1)You are right about the fact that Harry could probably have died RIGHT at the very beginning, without wasting hundreds of pages, hours...BUT I like the story anyway, and without all that there would be no story. Come up with something better, I dare you.

I'm not going to condone the "you couldn't do any better so that makes it okay" dogma. Just because I can't iron out the gaping mistake she's written into her book doesn't mean I shouldn't criticise it; she should sort out her own problems.

2) Harry has to take Moody's advice throughout the entire book, and WE KNOW the entire book was a waste of time, BUT because this was the story, Harry had to get through to the end.

But.. but.. you're using the book to justify the book. It's the old "The Bible says The Bible is true so it must be" slip. We were, I think, talking hypothetically about what would have happened had Crouch Jr. not gone through all that unecessary kerfuffle - in which case, he wouldn't have needed Harry to take his advice at all.

3) Ummm, YEAH Harry took a portkey at the end! [although there is the flaw of being able to use one on the grounds] I'm sorry I wasn't clear - the maze was on the grounds.

What's your point? That Rowling made another mistake?

4) As long as Harry was alive, Crouch had to stay as Moody. Therefore, he needed Moody ALIVE for the making of the polyjuice potion. Harry didn't die, therefore Crouch had to stay MOODY therefore he had to KEEP MOODY ALIVE. Capiche?

*sigh* See no. 2.

PS, I don't want to sound rude or mean in this, but I guess I do sound harsh. And I am wondering why people would put this much time and effort into pointing out all the flaws in books that they so obviously do not enjoy...

Kinders I think you're being a bit harsh, are you trying to dislike something just because you don't want to be like everyone else? the books have no depth to them, they're very superficial and shallow, but they are still incredibly addicting, which is good for a book to be, usually. I think they are great. I went through a phase when i wanted to dislike them because i didn't like being like everyone else, but it's worthless. But i do think the 5th one was mostly crap, and the 6th one had way to much sappiness shoved into it.

I like the first four books (yes! I like the fourth book! It's good enough for me to enjoy it without fretting over that massive hole, but if people come trying to argue that it wasn't unecessary, I'll fight!); I would never do anything either to be "in" or to be, um, "out", and I resent that suggestion. If I'm particularly verbose about my dislike of books V and VI it's because I grew up with the first books and at the time I loved them, and the whole series has gone so far off the rails that I feel almost betrayed.