Only one Adam & one Eve? (and more questions)

[MarcAsriel]

I dont know if these questions already commented.

(i repeat: i dont talk english very good!i'm from spanish site)

How was all beginnig?
From the beginnig were there yet the differents worlds? Or first were Adam and Eve (only one Adam and one eve for all the worlds..?????
Are the same Adam, Lyraworld's Adam than Willworld's Adam?
I dont dealt this.
Did it mean that Adam and Eve exist?

i have more questions, but i must leave.
bye.

[Somewhat]

I think that Adam and Eve as people never actually existed. It was never said in the books who created the worlds, and in fact it specifically said God didn't - he was just the first angel but not the creator.
Will and Lyra are therefore just people performing the clause of the prophecy, so they do not necessarily become Adam and Eve but perform their task.

[Riali]

I thought PP's point was that the Adam and Eve thing was a parable...

We are told all about evolution occuring in all the worlds (remember the whole mulefa anatomical passage), as opposed to the idea of species springing full fledged from some creation. He talks about an initial creation of the universe, but i for one definitely got the idea that a whole lot of evolution had gone on since then, including different worlds forming as different choices are made. But Adam, and more specifically Eve, seem to exist simply as the metaphorical figures of any given species who created the first Dust and hence brought that species into cognizant existence...
the eating of the apple in the version of A&E in the bible is, according to the books, a metaphor for the first creation of Dust by human beings. Once a species begins to make Dust, they gain a soul (or daemon, if you prefer) and an awareness of themselves as spiritual beings and not simply carnal ones ('knowledge of good and evil', right!).
So this happened at different times or at the same time in different worlds depending on when they spilt apart. The first Mulefa to make Dust was not the same as the first human, or the first Gallivespian, and probably even L world and our world had different first humans, as one set of circumstances involved the creation of an external daemon and one didnt, but its possible that the daemon forming was the event that split the two apart, just as the first Dust was made. Because new worlds are being formed all the time as a result of different choices being made. So many worlds with very different futures can share the same past.
The concept of Lyra as the new Eve for all the worlds, and Mary as the Serpent, only works because of the knife, and other world opening methods. If Dust hadnt been escaping through all windows, then the universe wouldnt of needed a jumpstart to start producing more. Because the technology existed to travel between The worlds, only one Eve was necessary.
whew, i hope some of that was coherent!

[MarcAsriel]

I agree, it mean that Adam and Eve didn't exist....
But, does it means that all the worlds at the beginnig were one world?
I ask this because Mary Malone (at TAS) when she arrives at mulefa's world, she think that that world is so different because it separated a long before of her one.
Look at this passage of the book.
And, I don't deal either why in L world and W world one speaks the same languages, and there are the same cities and the same countries....

[Somewhat]

Yes, I think all the worlds were one world at the very beginning. I made this diagram at one point showing at what times the worlds we know of split from each other, although this of course is my own view of the splits.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/ ... meline.png
M-world splits first, about 450mya when evolution really begins to kick in (that's a rough date that I didn't bother checking up later). Next, Lyra's and Will's worlds split when daemons appear in Lyra's world. Cittagazze is the last to split, when the Roman Empire does not fall there but falls in Will's world.

I know Peter's ideas about the worlds splitting are completely different to mine.

[MarcAsriel]

oh! ok.
mmm... who is Peter?
other question about your diagram, I dont understand what does it means mya, nya and ya... years..?

[Somewhat]

Peter is a very talented fanfiction writer on the forum. He'll pop in at some point, I'm sure.
Mya is Millions of Years Ago. Heh... Nya is a typo, it should be Tya or Thousands of Years Ago. Sorry.

[MarcAsriel]

OK. Thanks.
But, if 900 years ago Cittàgazze world and Will's world splited... the people of that world get separated... it is a bit incredible! And the people of the two news worlds hadn't an idea?
(i dont kwow how tell this,.... sorry!!)

[Somewhat]

I don't quite understand what you mean. Well, a world splits into two new worlds because of something happening that could've happened differently - it's more to do with quantum physics but I don't understand it that far.
So after, say, a boy is born in this world, Cittagazze might have split from it because in Cittagazze, a girl was born.

[Riali]

i understand what you mean, I think. You mean don't people notice that a world split has happened. Right?

And they don't because on a personal level, there is no difference. According to the theory, wen a new world is created, it is identical to the old one in every way, except for the one different event. Event tht follow in the the two worlds might be the same or different after the split.

hmmm, im not sure if ive been clear... ill give an example.

Pretend that tomorrow, some one decides to redesign the graphics on this page... We'll call him Bob. Bob is making new tRoH graphics and can't decide if they Look better in red or blue. Sooo, poof! A world split happens and in one reality Bob decides on the Red graphics, and in another he decides to use the blue. Now tRoH exists in two different dimensions, in dimension X as a red page and in dimension Y as a blue one. And we all exist in both dimensions as well. At the moment immediately following the split X and Y are exactly the same, except that X has a red tRoH website and Y has a blue one. If we could travel between X and Y we could visit ourselves. And from this point on X and Y are entirely separate worlds and events might happen radically differently in the two, or quite similarily, just depending how things turn out.

get it?

[Somewhat]

Heh, I'm tempted to drop in an Arthur Dent quote at this point in time - perhaps even the one in your signature.
Algebra and quantum shouldn't mix.

[MarcAsriel]

I dealt a bit your message Riali.... the people dont notice that the worlds splited...ok. But I dont deal that the people of the first wolrd they separate.... Does the half of the population go away to a world and the half to other one, doesn't it?
And, if it is this way.... the people must notice it!!

[Riali]

No, everyone is reproduced! there is a MarcAsriel in world X and a MarcAsriel in world Y. When a new world splits, the whole thing is replicated, including all its inhabitants. Everything except the consequences of the choice that caused the split is identical. But now, over time they can become unique.

And you can't do physics with out algebra, Moonflash! Although, definitely, Arthur Dent would not approve. But thats what they keep Marvin around for!

[MarcAsriel]

I understand but is realy incredible.... but I think is the correct way.
But you told Adam and Eve didn't exist and the are a parabol of PP.

Riali said:
But Adam, and more specifically Eve, seem to exist simply as the metaphorical figures of any given species who created the first Dust and hence brought that species into cognizant existence...

But Metatron and Baruch are family of Adam. If Baruch exist, Adam also existed, isn't it?

[Riali]

I don't remember a quote about Metetron and Baruch being Adam's family, but I would think that it would just mean that they were around way back when people first started to create dust, not that they are his literal relatives.

[Peter]

He'll pop in at some point, I'm sure.

Pop!

OK, here is how the HDM multiverse works in the stories of Ceres Wunderkind:

1) Universes spawn according to quantum mechanical principles. IOW, every time a quantum event takes place one or more new universes are created.

2) Not all universes are created equal. Unlikely or internally inconsistent universes have short lives. This is analogous to the short half-lives of the rarer radioactive isotopes. These short-lived universes either die or rejoin their parent. Mary Malone describes all this in my story The Clockmaker's Boy.

3) Similar universes form clusters, as first explained by Will Parry in my story Threads. In the Lyra's World / Will's World cluster, for example, there is only one Subtle Knife. You could also call them family universes as it is likely that Will's World and Lyra's World share a close common parent. I appreciate that all worlds have an eventual common parent.

4) There exists a master universe, which I call the Metaverse. It is immune to quantum effects and is "the world that is all worlds". Peter Joyce's life is saved by agents of the Metaverse at the end of The Clockmaker's Boy. It is possible that angels and harpies are Metaversal beings. Seers and oracles like Arthur Shire are in touch in some mystical way with the Metaverse.

5) The cost of having his life saved in this way is that Peter wakes up in the "wrong" universe. He suffers from a feeling of dislocation and sees "Time-Ghosts" - visions of people from his "home" universe. This problem is not resolved until the end of Time and Peter Joyce and the price of Peter's redemption is not one that I would want anyone to have to pay.

All clear? All this is background stuff - research - and not really what my stories are about.

[Somewhat]

He'll pop in at some point, I'm sure.

Pop!

OK, here is how the HDM multiverse works in the stories of Ceres Wunderkind:

1) Universes spawn according to quantum mechanical principles. IOW, every time a quantum event takes place one or more new universes are created.

2) Not all universes are created equal. Unlikely or internally inconsistent universes have short lives. This is analogous to the short half-lives of the rarer radioactive isotopes. These short-lived universes either die or rejoin their parent. Mary Malone describes all this in my story The Clockmaker's Boy.

3) Similar universes form clusters, as first explained by Will Parry in my story Threads. In the Lyra's World / Will's World cluster, for example, there is only one Subtle Knife. You could also call them family universes as it is likely that Will's World and Lyra's World share a close common parent. I appreciate that all worlds have an eventual common parent.

4) There exists a master universe, which I call the Metaverse. It is immune to quantum effects and is "the world that is all worlds". Peter Joyce's life is saved by agents of the Metaverse at the end of The Clockmaker's Boy. It is possible that angels and harpies are Metaversal beings. Seers and oracles like Arthur Shire are in touch in some mystical way with the Metaverse.

5) The cost of having his life saved in this way is that Peter wakes up in the "wrong" universe. He suffers from a feeling of dislocation and sees "Time-Ghosts" - visions of people from his "home" universe. This problem is not resolved until the end of Time and Peter Joyce and the price of Peter's redemption is not one that I would want anyone to have to pay.

All clear? All this is background stuff - research - and not really what my stories are about.

Ooh, so there's nothing about the worlds in The Clockmaker's Girl? And I was hoping... I really must read that at some point.

As for Metatron being Adam's relative, it's in TAS:

"With the Regent at the reins. He's concealed himself well, this Metatron. They speak of him in the apocryphal scriptures: he was a man once, a man called Enoch, the son of Jared, six generations away from Adam ..."

It does seem as though Adam were a real person, though it could be argued that to many Christians and Jews nowadays, Adam was a real person as well. It's all a matter of how you look at it.

[Peter]

Ooh, so there's nothing about the worlds in The Clockmaker's Girl? And I was hoping... I really must read that at some point.

Winter's coming. You might as well.

Although TCG features no inter-world travel it explores bits of Lyra's world I hadn't been to before and builds to a larger-scale climax than I usually go in for.

Old friends appear in unexpected places and there's more than a hint of dodgy goings-on. Especially, there's a brand-new narrator and, IMHO, the best human-daemon relationship I ever wrote. Sunny and Alfie FTW!

Oh, and there are poems

No more spoilers.

[Peter]

Double posting!

Oh. I forgot the World of the Dead.

6) Following Lyra's intervention, the World of the Dead has been drastically remodelled. When you die you are transferred to your own personal customised WotD. There you meet your harpy who, with reference to the Book of your life, collects your story. You are then free to enter the Nirvana of the Dust-stream.

Lizzie Boreal's WotD was a beach-hut on the western shores of Ireland. Alan's (The King's Councillor) was his family home, with his dead father waiting for him. Peter Joyce's was the Isis valley and the town of Henley and the Temple.

[Somewhat]

Lizzie Boreal's WotD was a beach-hut on the western shores of Ireland.

My ultimate favourite fanfic of your's.