daemon forms

[Kyrillion]

I guess daemon-forms as symbol of personality is, like, cultural perception? For instance, owls are not especially clever birds, but since they traditionally symbolise wisdom would a wise human still have an owl-daemon?

And that leads to the question of how might the existance of daemons int that world affect the use of animals as symbols? How and when was it decided whaich forms meant which personality and was it the daemon phenomonen that affected attitudes to animals or vice versa?

[Jez]

Hmm... interesting question. Associating a particular species with certain personality traits is always generalising, but I think there are some aspects of animal nature which could give a clue to daemon personality. For example, kittiwakes (don't know why that particular bird came into my head) are an extremely gregarious species, so one would imagine that someone with a kittiwake daemon would also be like that - a very social person. Whereas the robin is a solitary bird, which would reflect the personality of someone who prefers to be alone.

But then cultural perceptions are distorting, since they don't always reflect the nature of that animal - as with the owl example. Owls are in fact the most stupid birds of prey. So I always thought that daemons as a symbol of personality was more to do with the actual biological traits of that animal than particular cultural perceptions.

Animal symbolism would probably play a much greater part in Lyra's world, as there is a direct correlation between animals and personality in the daemon. The symbolism would probably come from the daemons and the personalities they reflected rather than human ideas being imposed upon animals.

[Soapy]

Also it would differ between worlds.

In Mulefa-land snakes are looked after but obviously in L-world and our world they're feared and associated with sin and temptation. So I think it's more to do with biological traits than cultural perceptions.

[Dragon of Heaven]

But people’s personality traits can change after they mature or in this case after their daemon settles. For example a person could be athletic and be into sports or fast cars and their daemon would settle on a Cheetah, grand. But say when the person hits their thirties they could start getting lazy, pile on the pounds and maybe loose interest in driving fast cars. So know you have a fat lazy guy with a Cheetah daemon running around the place. Bit of a contradiction there.

[DutchCrunch]

But people’s personality traits can change after they mature or in this case after their daemon settles. For example a person could be athletic and be into sports or fast cars and their daemon would settle on a Cheetah, grand. But say when the person hits their thirties they could start getting lazy, pile on the pounds and maybe loose interest in driving fast cars. So know you have a fat lazy guy with a Cheetah daemon running around the place. Bit of a contradiction there.

Hmm...I think this might contradict a rule or two about ressurrecting old threads. Anyhow, I have always thought the same thing. Even adults change, especially after a shocking experience like a war or something.

[Leif]

Maybe the cheetah would just get fat and lazy too.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Interesting point, but does remind me that dæmons seem a hindrance in many ways. For example, the guards at Bolvangar, despite having wolves as dæmons, have another entity to protect. If your dæmon dies, you die and vice versa. They can't even be separated all that much, else you weaken and then die too, probably just collapse like people did in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, but at least your soul was a part of you and couldn't be individually targeted.

Course, there are advantages too in some ways, just depends how you weigh them up.

[Ryntha]

Maybe it's a mixture of symbolism and the real personality of the animal?

On the cheetah thing, I actually think that dæmons are based more on personality traits that will last for a long time. For example, how social you are. Rather than your likes and dislikes, or something that could change quite quickly.
I wonder how dæmons act when their owner has some disablity (sp?)...or when they're having an asthma attack...

[DutchCrunch]

Maybe it's a mixture of symbolism and the real personality of the animal?

On the cheetah thing, I actually think that dæmons are based more on personality traits that will last for a long time. For example, how social you are. Rather than your likes and dislikes, or something that could change quite quickly.
I wonder how dæmons act when their owner has some disablity (sp?)...or when they're having an asthma attack...

Or epilepsie...

I agree with Valdemar, though. In war mental conditions are very important, of course, but it can't be said that the man with the stronger soul or will can kill a man just with that. Whilst, with daemons, when they fight they can kill each other. Meaning both you and your daemon have to be better than the other and his daemon. Surely this is a disadvantage.

Also, just imagine fleeing from an enemy and climbing up a ladder real quick to get away...how's the wolf going to come along? That pretty much goes for every non flying daemon. They would hinder the movement of the person greatly. As would flying ones in the case of small, confined spaces.

[Somewhat]

The ultimate hindrance, of course, is daemons that have to live in the water.

But Pullman did say in an interview that your daemon never changes form, even after a major shock or life-changing event. He argues your soul is always the same, no matter what happens. It might be the case with Mrs Coutler, who always had a motherly instinct hidden somewhere, but it isn't true for many other people.

[Ryntha]

No matter how much we discuss this, we will never truly know the answer...

Yes, Dæmons ARE a disadvantage. Also if you're trying to hide under a diguise or something, and the one seeking you gets given a description of 'wolf dæmon', your diguise immediately fails...

[Jez]

daemons reflect the most unchanging part of your personality - the deeply rooted traits that will always be there, not superficial things such as likes and dislikes, which are passing. They may also reflect part of your personality that hasn't really surfaced yet - after all, a daemon's form represents your true self.

daemons themselves could change as you got older though. Not in form, but in other ways. If you got depressed, this might be reflected in the condition of your daemon e.g. its fur might be all dull and matted, lethargic etc.

One thing I found interesting was the character of Farder Coram. He has some kind of illness, not sure what, but he shakes all the time. But his daemon is perfectly healthy and beautiful. I think what this reflects is the state of his mind. His mental functions are fine, even though his physical body isn't. So I think daemons are more likely to look ill if their human is suffering from some kind of mental problem.

And Ryntha, I think daemons can be an advantage as well as a disadvantage. Imagine having a mouse daemon - it could easily fit into small spaces to find stuff you've dropped. And I've always wondered if people would ever have horse daemons and ride them.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Farder Coram likely had an early stage of Parkinson's which is an increasingly common disease associated with old age along with Alzheimer's which it is related to somewhat. The thing here is, that while with Parkinson's it is mainly motor control (hence the hand shaking) that goes, what if the person had Alzheimer's? Their brain would basically be getting eroded away by plaques inside it, which any palliative care nurse like my mother will tell you has a definite effect on your mental state.

So how would the dæmon be if someone is losing their higher mental faculties? Would it even show? In reality, there is no soul, everything is down to biochemistry (proof of this; take any intoxicating drug like alcohol and witness personality change). But in HDM, at least in Lyra's universe and not ours, does this take place?

[Ryntha]

In dæmon fights, I guess the one with the more ferocious form would win, which is rather unfair with their humans.

[manda]

Having a daemon is definitely a disadvantage, especially in a fight if you are versing someone who doesn't have a visible daemon.

daemons themselves could change as you got older though. Not in form, but in other ways. If you got depressed, this might be reflected in the condition of your daemon e.g. its fur might be all dull and matted, lethargic etc.

True, true.

[Ryntha]

especially in a fight if you are versing someone who doesn't have a visible daemon.

What do you mean?

[Dragon of Heaven]

Hmm...I think this might contradict a rule or two about ressurrecting old threads.

Well they seem to be already doing that on the "Elements in the Film(is the evil church storyline still in)" thread in the General Movie Discussion section and no one has said anything. Don't forget that there are new people who haven't had the opportunity to discuss these things yet and may not be aware that they were brought up at all. And I find it odd you even bring up this point considering you’re profile says you only joined last month.

[Admiral Valdemar]

What do you mean?

It can depend on the situation, naturally, as it isn't a cut & dry concept like that, but having a dæmon can be a big disadvantage in a fight. If you had a soldier from our world fighting one from Lyra's, assuming the L-world guy had a wolf dæmon like the Muscovite guards, then he is either able to win by having the dæmon attack the other guy from one side as the Muscovite attacks from another, or, the other guy simply shoots or throws a grenade at the man or dæmon, and kills them both. At least with two men, if one man is wounded or killed, the other can go on. Dæmons are a compromise given if one half is wounded, the other half reflects this since it is essentially a manifestation of their soul. So you have two targets the enemy can shoot at, rather than just yourself.

[Will]

daemons would however have been an advantage earlier on in warfare - before projectile weapons of course. This means that they are evolutionarily useful - did they help Lyra's homo sapiens kill off the neanderthals?

[york]

What do you mean?

It can depend on the situation, naturally, as it isn't a cut & dry concept like that, but having a dæmon can be a big disadvantage in a fight. If you had a soldier from our world fighting one from Lyra's, assuming the L-world guy had a wolf dæmon like the Muscovite guards, then he is either able to win by having the dæmon attack the other guy from one side as the Muscovite attacks from another, or, the other guy simply shoots or throws a grenade at the man or dæmon, and kills them both. At least with two men, if one man is wounded or killed, the other can go on. Dæmons are a compromise given if one half is wounded, the other half reflects this since it is essentially a manifestation of their soul. So you have two targets the enemy can shoot at, rather than just yourself.

So it's a disadvantage in a situation that is essentially impossible, especially with the closing of the windows. Having a daemon has a huge amount of advantages outside of impossible combat (Since it's more of an advantage in a L-world fight). For example, you'd never be alone. You'd never have to do anything by yourself. It'd be awesome!