daemon/Human Relationship

[Dove]

I am re-reading the trilogy, as the last time I read it was more than a year ago. I don't know if this is answered later on in the books, if it is, I'm sorry.

What exactly is the relationship between a daemon and a human? Are they one soul in two bodies, or are they more like two closely intertwined beings (like twins)? It seems they often have very similar feelings (although in the beginning of The Golden Compass, Pan is much more reluctant to go into the Retiring Room than Lyra) and, of course, they can feel each other's pain.

So yes...

[Jamie]

Are they one soul in two bodies

one human one animal but yes

Pan is much more reluctant to go into the Retiring Room than Lyra

I believe this is covered somewhere else but someone said something about the daemon having the opposite feelings or moods to the human i.e. cautious - eager

[Dove]

I believe this is covered somewhere else but someone said something about the dæmon having the opposite feelings or moods to the human i.e. cautious - eager

I see what you mean, but Lyra and Pan have felt anxiety and fear at the same time, although I don't have a specific example. And Pan was able to cure Lyra of her seasickness on the gyptian boat by flying near the water, but that didn't require him being sick himself.


(Yes! It changes da-emons to daemons!)

[lostinthought451]

Well, the daemon is the person's soul, and the person's brain is their "spirit", so to speak. That's how I saw it, anyway.

[Dove]

Okay, I was reading The Golden Compass last night, and at Bolvangar, it says that Pan flashed an idea into Lyra's mind, indicating that daemons and humans can read each other's minds. However, if this were the case, wouldn't half their conversations go on in their minds only?

[Will]

Not really thought through by Pullman there, doesn't look like. I guess people just like to talk.

[Dove]

AHA!


The Golden Compass, Page 393

We're still one being; both of us are one.

-Lyra to Pantalaimon

[Huginn]

I think the human/daemon relationship embodies some part of how people can be of "two minds." In this case, the human part will be inclined one way, but the daemon part is more connected to the person's opposing tendencies. For example, a person from our world shirking off homework would have to deal with his/her own inner voice nagging to get stuff done (for some of us more than others, of course). In a world with physical daemons, however, he/she would instead have to put up with the daemon doing the nagging.

This does support the idea that human and daemon are one, but I've come to realize that this only puts them in an opposing relationship; the daemon doesn't come to represent a inner spirit or feeling but only the minority opinion in the person's overall makeup, something that doesn't jive with the soul-concept of a daemon. Although upon considering the effects of death-by-specter, this concept doesn't seem to hold anyway. In contrast, the process of intercission does seem to support the soul analogy. Without the daemon, the body seems...without drive, emotionless, clearly akin to the denizens of the Land of the Dead. Note also how when Lyra talks about Will to the dead Roger, the latter notices how her tone abruptly flattens out, like the dead around him. This suggests that the daemon definitely has something to do with emotional feeling, but curiously, it also implies that simply being disconnected from one's daemon doesn't have quite the same effect as death or intercission.

[Max]

I think the human/dæmon relationship embodies some part of how people can be of "two minds." In this case, the human part will be inclined one way, but the dæmon part is more connected to the person's opposing tendencies. For example, a person from our world shirking off homework would have to deal with his/her own inner voice nagging to get stuff done (for some of us more than others, of course). In a world with physical dæmons, however, he/she would instead have to put up with the dæmon doing the nagging.

This does support the idea that human and dæmon are one, but I've come to realize that this only puts them in an opposing relationship; the dæmon doesn't come to represent a inner spirit or feeling but only the minority opinion in the person's overall makeup, something that doesn't jive with the soul-concept of a dæmon.

It's a regurgitation of Jungian, Freudian, Platonic, Judeo-Christian and - *spit* - Cartesian theories of human nature - and when I say regurgitation, I mean he's eaten the lot, let them disintegrate and intermingle in his stomach, then projectile vomited them back out. But lordy, the man pukes with style.

[Skip next two paragraphs unless you've really got nothing better to do]

If we assume that Pullman thought all this out, the effects of 'Spectrisation' and Death have interesting implications, as they suggest a complex interdependence. While it is suggested that the daemon is a 'spirit', we see in HDM and Huggin's analogy that it assumes a role more like Plato's rational faculty, or even Freud's superego (Pantalaimon adjures Lyra to observe the College rules, for example). Thus we see the ghost as more like Plato's emotional/expedient faculty, concerned with such things as ambition, honour, pride, love. This fits with Pullman's L-world characters: Lyra above all. Pullman's body then obviously assumes the Platonic instinctual faculty/Freudian id.

I think it is a mistake to view Pullman's LotD ghosts as emotionless. They express strong emotion virtually whenever they speak. However, what they do lack is compulsion, direction, motivation and action: without instinct to compel and rationality to direct, they have no motivation and so only the feeblest, most vague actions. This is also true in, as one would expect, different ways of intercision and Spectre victims.

...I was going to continue this, but I'm trying rather foolishly to make an omelette out of vomit. Anyway, I don't know much about Jung, but I think it fits, by a very great amount, best there.

In Jungian philosophy, there is the anima and the animus. The former is the feminine inner personality of a male, the latter is the male inner personality of a female. Bells ringing already?

This works best if we consider it in terms of our world, which is only fair as Jung was here. The anima was also the "unconscious or true inner self of an individual, as opposed to the person, or outer aspect of the personality." Much like Pullman describes daemons in terms of our worlders. As I say, I dont know much about Jung, so I can't carry it any farther - besides, someone's sure to have brought it up before; the parallels are so strong.

[Dove]

I think the human/dæmon relationship embodies some part of how people can be of "two minds." In this case, the human part will be inclined one way, but the dæmon part is more connected to the person's opposing tendencies. For example, a person from our world shirking off homework would have to deal with his/her own inner voice nagging to get stuff done (for some of us more than others, of course). In a world with physical dæmons, however, he/she would instead have to put up with the dæmon doing the nagging.

This does support the idea that human and dæmon are one, but I've come to realize that this only puts them in an opposing relationship; the dæmon doesn't come to represent a inner spirit or feeling but only the minority opinion in the person's overall makeup, something that doesn't jive with the soul-concept of a dæmon. Although upon considering the effects of death-by-specter, this concept doesn't seem to hold anyway. In contrast, the process of intercission does seem to support the soul analogy. Without the dæmon, the body seems...without drive, emotionless, clearly akin to the denizens of the Land of the Dead. Note also how when Lyra talks about Will to the dead Roger, the latter notices how her tone abruptly flattens out, like the dead around him. This suggests that the dæmon definitely has something to do with emotional feeling, but curiously, it also implies that simply being disconnected from one's dæmon doesn't have quite the same effect as death or intercission.

...Almost as if daemons are like a foil to the human's personality.

[Peter]

The human/daemon pair together contain the sum total of that pair's personality. However, the amounts of the components of that summed personality are not fixed in either the human or the daemon host.

[SOLmenta]

The dæmons in Lyra's world are equal to the souls in ours.

In Lyra's world, the souls of people are entirely seperate beings from the owner of the soul; in the form of animals.

I can't say I know for sure why humans and their dæmons disagree with each other, but my uneducated guess is that its because dæmons also serve as the humans' consciences.
For example, I want my little sister's chocolate, and am thinking of taking it away from her and eating it. My dæmon would disagree with me, and tell me not to, because although my careless thoughts imply an incessant want for the chocolate, my mind/heart (dæmon) knows better.

[Tomsy]

For example, I want my little sister's chocolate, and am thinking of taking it away from her and eating it. My dæmon would disagree with me, and tell me not to, because although my careless thoughts imply an incessant want for the chocolate, my mind/heart (dæmon) knows better.

I don't think that daemons always take the moral highground. They could be more tricksy than the human themself!

[Peter]

For example, I want my little sister's chocolate, and am thinking of taking it away from her and eating it. My dæmon would disagree with me, and tell me not to, because although my careless thoughts imply an incessant want for the chocolate, my mind/heart (dæmon) knows better.

I don't think that dæmons always take the moral highground. They could be more tricksy than the human themself!

I'm sure they don't:

http://www.bridgetothestars.net/forum/v ... p?t=200999

[Mewtation]

I think dæmons are just an extension of one's spirit manifesting itself in the form of an animal outside the body. The reason it's usually the opposite sex as the person is because everyone has a little of each gender in him or her. At least, that's my thoughts on the matter.

[Rikku26]

when I first read HDM I thought that dæmons were like your conscience it knew what you were thinking and like pan in the retiring room
but as i read on my Perspective changed and I thought that maybe Dæmons were not really there but that the people imagend them because some people in other worlds could see them but the others can not. Then again it changed for 1 final time to say that Dæmons are part of you but only as much as you wish
some people may choose to push away their Dæmon and ignore it or some may choose to love and spoil their Dæmon but never cause it to leave, but of course they can not. my theory my seem confusing but who knows maybe it is true