Are Lyra and Will the same person?

[glee]

If there are many worlds, co-existing in the same space and time, then the question arises, are Will and Lyra the same person?

I believe Pullman teases us with clues - for instance, in TSK, he has Lyra and Will saying "Amber" and "Anabaric" at the same moment, with the same expression on their faces.

If there are countless possiblilites, and countless versions of our world, then there are countless possibilities and versions of US. The different possibilities would certainly include gender.

In the Garden of Eden tale, Eve is created out of Adam. She is not a separate person, but a female version of HIM. If Lyra and Will must re-create the Fall, then they must be male and female versions of the same person as well, I think.

Will's father was present in Lyra's world, but a version of himself might also have inhabited Lyra's world as well. Could that version be Lord Asriel? They are not unalike. Will's mother is not much like Mrs Coulter. But then, she is insane. Could they be the same person as well?

[Jez]

Now that's a far-out theory. My initial thought is... er, no. They are different people, different personalities, appearance, daemons etc.

I think you'd have to have a very strange definition of a person in order to assert this. I won't deny that there are some parallels between them, but I always thought that was to build up the relationship (look, they have identical expressions, they're so made for each other!).

[silversong]

You certainly think alternative thoughts, glee!

The suggestion is not one I'd considered...

Are you meaning to say that in a parallel universe, a united Will/Lyra has the adventures depicted in HDM?

[glee]

Yes, Jez, it is far out in our Judeo/Christian tradition.

However, in the Hindu and Muslim traditions, male/female versions of the same being abound.

Hindu gods are all manifestations or aspects of the One God - and each manifestation has a female counterpart. They are twin aspects of the same being, and also a mated pair.

In Muslim love stories, lovers are fated to find each other because they are soul mates. They share one soul. Among some sects, it is believed that a woman has no soul of her own, anyway. It belongs to her husband, and when she is joined to him, she gets the portion of soul that was hers to claim, and can enter paradise.

Before these religions, there was the Great Goddess religion, from what is now the British Isles, and the Nordic lands, throughout Europe to Egypt and the Mid East. The deities in the many versions of this religious concept involved twinned aspects as well.

In the Roman and Greek Pantheon, we have Apollo and Diana. They were adopted by the Greeks hundreds of years after the other gods. They are, in fact, the double gods of the Old Religion, given new identities.

Pullman draws on so much of classical literature for the HDM trilogy, I wonder if he made use of this concept as well...

Silversong, yes to you too. Every version of Earth would HAVE to have its own version of such an important event, wouldn't it? Or - would it? Would the one version of this event suffice for all the others? It would appear from Pullman's telling that many Earth-versions were involved in Lyra and Will's adventure, and the one adventure affected them all. In that case, in the other versions, the versions of Lyra/Will would go on without having any adventure at all....hmmmm.....

[Ursae Majoris]

It's an interesting proposition to be sure, far out, yes, but interesting all the same. If we are to buy into the infinite worlds theory then we also have to buy into the infinite possibility as well.

However, I do think that Jez does have a point that if Lyra and Will were the same person, then they would have the same (or similar) daemon.

As to there being a Lyra in W world and a Will in L world, with all the differences between these two worlds, it is difficult to believe that that single ancestry line belonging to Will would be exactly the same and completely intact in Lyra's world. It would have, to otherwise it would not have been the same Will that would have been born in L world. The same goes for Lyra being born in W world.

[Cookiemonster]

However, I do think that Jez does have a point that if Lyra and Will were the same person, then they would have the same (or similar) dæmon.

Hmm, technically identical twins are the 'same person', but they can be very different in personality and all that sort of thing - I don't think this theory that Will and Lyra being possibly the same person is compromised by the fact that they don't have the same daemon.

Random edit: Oo, all the 4s 4444th post.

[silversong]

Do identical twins have exactly the same genetic structure? Just wondering.

[glee]

I believe so - it happens when the fertilized egg cell starts its process of dividing into two cells. Instead of remaining a cohesive unit, the cells divide completely, and separate. Each cell then starts the process of dividing all over again, but into two identical babies instead of one. However - the cells mirror each other. So, for instance, one twin is right handed and the other left handed.

Interesting difference between twins and what I am suggesting - twins are two souls with one body, and Lyra/Will would be one soul with two bodies........

[silversong]

Wouldn't either Will and Lyra be rather...dull, or lifeless, with only half of a soul? Or am I thinking about that in the wrong way...I suppose the soul could still be as vibrant across the universe, but what about when they leave each other? And alternative universes--would this mean that the soul would be fractured even further?

[Ursae Majoris]

I believe so - it happens when the fertilized egg cell starts its process of dividing into two cells. Instead of remaining a cohesive unit, the cells divide completely, and separate. Each cell then starts the process of dividing all over again, but into two identical babies instead of one. However - the cells mirror each other. So, for instance, one twin is right handed and the other left handed.

Interesting difference between twins and what I am suggesting - twins are two souls with one body, and Lyra/Will would be one soul with two bodies........

Not always, according to Wikipedia, mirror twins as they are called, are rare, you can read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_ ... s_of_twins.

Also, since Lyra and Will both have their own daemons, they do not share souls.

However, I do think that Jez does have a point that if Lyra and Will were the same person, then they would have the same (or similar) dæmon.

Hmm, technically identical twins are the 'same person', but they can be very different in personality and all that sort of thing - I don't think this theory that Will and Lyra being possibly the same person is compromised by the fact that they don't have the same dæmon.

Good point.

[glee]

LOL - now, Silversong, you are getting into one of my other brain-teasers.

Westerners tend to think of ourselves in terms of body and soul. The body includes all our gut reactions, and our emotions - but it also controls the functions of our brains. It is our mind that seeks to defend itself, and nurture itself, and prevail over others. This part, our personality, our ego, is part of the body, and can be affected by the state of the body. Chemical imbalances in the brain can lead to depression and insanity. Erosion of the brain can lead to dementia. Damage to the brain can result in retardation or inablility to respond emotionally.

Ego is perishable. Yet, even when a loved one is immobile and silenced by Alzheimers, the essence of who they are remains somehow - we can still sense it, imprisoned as it is, within the ruined brain. There is something more to them than the personality we knew and loved. It may be gone, but our loved one is still there. Their soul is still there.

In the HDM books, when a child is severed, or when the Specters devour an adult, the human body left is mindless - egoless. We are assuming that the HDM human contains the ego, and the daemon contains the soul. But perhaps it is the other way around?

[Jez]

However, in the Hindu and Muslim traditions, male/female versions of the same being abound.

That's all very well, but it's clear in HDM that the Lyra/Will story is based on the Christian tradition.

Hmm, technically identical twins are the 'same person'

Since when are identical twins the same person? They are different people - two individuals who happen to share the same genes.

In the HDM books, when a child is severed, or when the Specters devour an adult, the human body left is mindless - egoless. We are assuming that the HDM human contains the ego, and the dæmon contains the soul. But perhaps it is the other way around?

If the ego is the mind, then wouldn't it be contained in the ghost part? We have the body, the daemon (soul) and the ghost (mind).

Switching the soul and mind around is pure speculation. Do you have any textual evidence to back this claim up?

[Cookiemonster]

Hmm, technically identical twins are the 'same person'

Since when are identical twins the same person? They are different people - two individuals who happen to share the same genes.

Oddly enough, I was aware that identical twins share the same genes, being a genetics student and all

Genetically they are the same person, but my point was that they are very different in personality despite this. It was just an attempt at an example relating to the Lyra and Will thing - just because they might be the same person in different worlds they could easily still be quite different, and therefore they wouldn't necessarily have the same/similar daemons. It's the whole nature/nurture type thing that I was attempting to put across.

[glee]

Jez, I am not making a claim, I am asking a question. The thing is, I've been looking for "textual" info that defines the daemon as the soul - and I haven't found it. Pullman apparently leaves it up to the reader to define what it is that is devoured by the Specters and severed from the children.

In the case of severed adults, it is written that they have no will of their own. Such is also the case with Specter-devoured adults. But the severed adults still function enough to be fierce warriors, and competant health professionals, under the direction of other people. The devoured adults, on the other hand, become total vegetables, and don't respond to any direction at all.

I guess it comes down to how we choose to define the soul. In my own experience, I define the mind with the ego, and define the soul as the spiritual essence of the person. When I see a person with advanced Alzheimers, I see someone in the state of a Specter-devoured adult. The mind/ego is gone. The soul still shines through their eyes.

But this should probably be in another thread, because it is off the original topic - Are Lyra and Will the same person?

Cookiemonster makes my point - identical twins are created from the same fertilized-egg-cell. It can be said that they share the same body. Yet they house two different mind/egos, and two different souls.

So, in all the Worlds, are the different versions of the inhabitants totally different people as well?

Star Trek fans might remember the Next Generation episode where the Enterprise finds another version of its First Officer, who had been accidentally split in a transporter malfunction. One version of the First Officer returned safely to the ship and never knew anything happened. The other version remained trapped on a deserted asteroid for several years. When the two met up, they found their experiences had made them different in every way....

[DutchCrunch]

I too would have to disagree with you.
Though, seeing that each male has a female counterpart could be seen as similar to "soul mates". It can be argued that the two fit together so immaculately that they are a perfect one when together, though they are also very much separate persons. 1+1=1.

[Frjava]

Hmm, I guess Pullman could have wanted the reader to think this, just after reading the end of TASG I doubt he would have insinuated that....He could have been getting at 'loving yourself' but that was a bit strong, so I doubt it, plus I know it's already been said, but being the same person means having a daemon, right? And Will and Lyra don't have that answers as a simple no.

~Frjava

[Stargirl]

Perhaps they share certain parts of their.... soul? I definitely don't think they are the same person but undoubtedly they.. how to put it... they have gone through so much together and they love each other so much and are so much a part of each other's lives they can affect each other like no one else can? Plus their is a fact of what their daemons went through together... perhaps their souls are somewhat... entwined....

[Undestined]

Wouldn't either Will and Lyra be rather...dull, or lifeless, with only half of a soul? Or am I thinking about that in the wrong way...I suppose the soul could still be as vibrant across the universe, but what about when they leave each other? And alternative universes--would this mean that the soul would be fractured even further?

Their separation was intensely painful, as I recall...
If they aren't the same but are, instead, mirrors of each other, then their attraction would have been really powerful, like oppositely charged ions or North and South pole magnets. Just a thoughtlet.

[VMLM3]

Wouldn't either Will and Lyra be rather...dull, or lifeless, with only half of a soul? Or am I thinking about that in the wrong way...I suppose the soul could still be as vibrant across the universe, but what about when they leave each other? And alternative universes--would this mean that the soul would be fractured even further?

Think of it as being myopic. A person with slight myopia can go through life without ever using glasses, however once that person tries on a pair of glasses and realizes how much better he sees with them on, he'll feel he needs the glasses when in fact he's never needed them before.

So basically if Lyra and Will shared a soul they wouldn't necessarily be affected when they're not near each other, as long as they don't realize they've been living with only half a soul. Being separated after could result painful or undesirable because they're already aware that they're missing something of themselves.

That being said I disagree with you, Glee. Certainly the idea is, arguably, a possibility; however in this case the multiple universe theory does not back up your idea.

The theory says, basically, that at some point in time one world is presented with a fork in the road, a huge multi-million road fork, and the world separates for every possible outcome of the choice. So now there's a million new worlds stemming out from the old world, and from that moment on those world are, though similar, no longer the same as the original. This goes on over and over and over and over so long as there exists the possibility of two or more different outcomes in any given situation (theoretically even the fall a leaf could give way to an alternate world, or more popularly, the beating of a butterfly's wings), though obviously the difference between the worlds will be proportional to the consequences and the importance of the situation.

Why would I ramble on so? Well I like doing it, but also to prove a point. Will's world and Lyra's world are extremely different. Technologically, culturally, heck even spiritually (daemons), they are quite literally worlds apart. So it's safe to say that whatever event caused both worlds to split happened at an early stage of human history, and so they are not necessarily similar in the way you imply.

So while there quite possibly could exist parallel worlds for Lyra or Will's worlds where there are copies of Lyra and Will, they would have to be worlds that have stemmed away during more recent events.

With that out of the way, there’s another part of this discussion that caught my eye.

In the HDM books, when a child is severed, or when the Specters devour an adult, the human body left is mindless - egoless. We are assuming that the HDM human contains the ego, and the daemon contains the soul. But perhaps it is the other way around?

One of the things that originally surprised me while reading Amber Spyglass was finding out that it was a person’s ghost, not his daemon, which made the journey to the Underworld. When I read this I got to thinking about it and came to a conclusion similar to yours. So I was just wondering if anybody else had noticed any clues pointing towards daemons being something other than souls.

[Jez]

One of the things that originally surprised me while reading Amber Spyglass was finding out that it was a person’s ghost, not his daemon, which made the journey to the Underworld. When I read this I got to thinking about it and came to a conclusion similar to yours. So I was just wondering if anybody else had noticed any clues pointing towards daemons being something other than souls.

The way I see it, the ghost represents the mind and the daemon represents the spirit or soul. The mind is rational and the daemon is more like the heart of the person - conscience, emotions and motivation. Human beings need both reason and emotion to function. Without a daemon, they lose their sense of self. They can't feel anything, they have no motivation... they're empty. Not mindless though, in the strict sense, unless Spectres eat ghosts as well as daemons. I suppose that's why they're able to obey orders, which would require some intelligence.