More on intercision

[Aletheia Dolorosa]

Something that occurred to me when I was reading Interview with the Vampire (*ducks for cover in the face of the inevitable paying-out that will follow*)

In that story, there is a five year old girl who gets made into a vampire and thus never grows up. She lives for hundreds of years, but always in the shape of a five year old (which makes her insane).

So, my question is, if a daemon and child were severed and the child survived for a long time after the seperation, would the child grow up physically, or still remain a child? Just how connected are Dust and physical maturity? Is the connection only between Dust and mental maturity?

[Ultracommando93]

The nurses at bolvangar seemed to grow, but then again we don't know how old they were when they had it. I don't think there's any examples of anyone with intercision even living long enough for us to see.

[Somewhat]

I think an intercised child will just die, personally.

[Ultracommando93]

I think an intercised child will just die, personally.

Seems to be the case so far. I wonder if it's the shock of it or the lack of a soul that kills you?

Here's a thought- if killing your daemon, or bringing them too far apart kills you practically instantly, why doesn't intercision do it? Any theories? (Mine is that the intercision alloy only severes some energy links but others remain intact, letting you survive).

[Riali]

Here's a thought- if killing your daemon, or bringing them too far apart kills you practically instantly, why doesn't intercision do it? Any theories? (Mine is that the intercision alloy only severes some energy links but others remain intact, letting you survive).

Separation doesn't kill you, it just hurts. Will and Lyra and all the witches have been through it, after all. Prolonged separation would kill you eventually, but probably slower than intercision.
As for killing your daemon, I personally don't remember a reference to this. Although I certainly haven't memorized the whole text, so have you a quote please? At any rate, a dead daemon is rather worse than a severed one, I should think.

In regards to growing up daemon-less, I agree that one always dies before this becomes an issue, but if by some strange scenario one lived, then I don't imagine pysical growth would be impeded. Un-sentient (is that a word?) beings, animals and such, age and mature physically.

[Ultracommando93]

Separation doesn't kill you, it just hurts. Will and Lyra and all the witches have been through it, after all. Prolonged separation would kill you eventually, but probably slower than intercision.

Wrong sort of separation- Lyra and the witches entered a place daemons can't. I'm talking about what happened to Roger. If your daemon is physically too far from you and you haven't had the partial separation thing, you die.

As for killing your daemon, I personally don't remember a reference to this. Although I certainly haven't memorized the whole text, so have you a quote please? At any rate, a dead daemon is rather worse than a severed one, I should think.

In regards to growing up daemon-less, I agree that one always dies before this becomes an issue, but if by some strange scenario one lived, then I don't imagine pysical growth would be impeded. Un-sentient (is that a word?) beings, animals and such, age and mature physically.

I don't have a quote off the top of my head, but I think somewhere it says killing a daemon usualy kills the human. It's "non-sentient", by the way.

[Blossom]

I remember it saying something on that too I think, which is a bit strange because how can it be physically impossible to survive without a soul?

I guess the way Roger had he his daemon pulled from him like that made it more of a ripping, it was probably shock that killed him, whereas under the silver guillotine it was a smooth cut that separated the daemon. It's all very pathetic evolutionary wise.

[Riali]

Ahh, yes, I'd momentarily forgotten Roger's fate, poor lad.
That brand of separation did kill him rather sharpish, didn't it?

Although, here's a thought (just came to me this moment, so may be faulty, but here goes anyhow) If Asriel's machine hadn't used all the Dust created by his separation, would he still have died in the same way? If the machine hadn't been there, could the Dust have kept some degree of bondage and left him with a witch-type daemon?

Assuming of course that the shock wouldn't have killed him (or his daemon). Which it very probably would have.

[Ultracommando93]

I remember it saying something on that too I think, which is a bit strange because how can it be physically impossible to survive without a soul?

You think like me.

Still, in a world where souls exist, I think it's safe to assume that they form some integral part of your sentience. Imagine it as a sort of life-force. In a fantasy scenario, souls are generally pretty important (I use the example of warhamer 40k, where you die when it is removed).

[Jez]

Interesting question. Lord Asriel compared intercision to castration. If you castrate a boy before he hits puberty, he won't go through the normal stages of puberty e.g. his voice won't break. So physically, he won't mature.

I'd say daemons are probably the mental equivalent of that. If your daemon is cut away before you have matured as a person, your mental development is probably permanently impeded.

[Aletheia Dolorosa]

Of course if the daemon dies, the human dies too. What I'm talking about is if the human and daemon both survive the seperation, and are kept seperate. The nurses obviously survived, but it doesn't say that they grow. They're already adults.

[furbaby]

Their daemons were still with them, though.

[Leif]

Their daemons were still with them, though.

Right. A better example is Tony, who Lyra found clutching the fish. He underwent intercision and was completely separated from his daemon. He survived a few days, but ended up dying. That shows that people don't necessarily die instantly when separated from their daemons, but it's very likely they don't last long, like Tony. It seems very fitting that if a daemonless child were to survive a while, they wouldn't mature. Tony certainly seemed like a zombie, the poor kid...

[AUST]

I don't balive that someone can survive having there daemon chopped away-it breaks all the links between them adn there soul and they just become an unfeeling Zombie like Tony and the Nurses. Weither or not they are human after that is debatable-in my opinion they are not. They have no soul, no real free will or thoughts (look at how easly they are led, Tony shows no fear about Iroek) you might be able to deep both the body and the daemon alive but they no longer have a 'mind' as we see it.

[Leif]

There's a difference between Tony and the nurses, though. Both underwent intercision, but the nurses still had their daemons where as Tony didn't. The nurses didn't seem to have any free will, but they seemed physically healthy, whereas daemon-less Tony was sick and dying.

[AUST]

There's a difference between Tony and the nurses, though. Both underwent intercision, but the nurses still had their daemons where as Tony didn't. The nurses didn't seem to have any free will, but they seemed physically healthy, whereas daemon-less Tony was sick and dying.

There physical bodies have been looked after-it dosn't mean they're human.

[Leif]

There's a difference between Tony and the nurses, though. Both underwent intercision, but the nurses still had their daemons where as Tony didn't. The nurses didn't seem to have any free will, but they seemed physically healthy, whereas daemon-less Tony was sick and dying.

There physical bodies have been looked after-it dosn't mean they're human.

I completely agree with you; they are not complete humans. But my point is that Tony's situation is even worse than the nurses. There must be some benefit to reuniting the caged daemons with their children, otherwise Lyra would just considered them lost. But yeah, they Serefina's daemon makes it quite clear that even with their daemons, they'll never be one again.

[portent]

Based on what happened to Tony, the Zombis, and the people attacked by Specters, that the symptoms are very similar to brain damage. Some people are killed instantly, some die more slowly, some survive with diminished capacity.

It wouldn't have any effect on biological maturity or aging, though

[jordan college girl]

Didn't Frader Coram mention that Mrs. Coulter had seen succesful attempts in Africa where they used the resulting zombie as a slave. It seems that those victims lived for a long while after the intercision, otherwise it wouldn't be profitable for the slave owners to do the operation. I also would imagine that maybe the zombies wouldn't grow or mature, and in that way stay in peak physical condition in order to provide optimal labor for their owners.

I really like thinking about this idea.

[Ultracommando93]

Here's a theory: perhaps adults, having already matured, can survive the process, whereas children cannot, perhaps also due their innocence of such terrible things. That would explain most of the arguments etc people are suggesting.