The Republic of Heaven

Just wondering how many people think that God actually lives. Hmmm.... I decided to put this post (if it is the only post on this subject) because I'm really having doubts about my religion... anyway I'm not entirely sure about several things....questions running around my mind that need more logical answers.

MbtE.

I do believe in God. Or a higher power...that's as far as I can be bothered to elaborate right now. There is definitely something spiritual.

MbtE.

My mum seems to think im turning atheist (sp?) I'm supposed to be Catholic but i really dont give a ~*pineapples*~ about religion anymore (or faith in God for the matter)
I would put it this way : if there is such thing as evil in the world then there must be good.

For all you atheists... take a look at this link:

http://christiananswers.net/q-aiia/questions-for-skeptics.html

The website also has arguments for the existence of God and a load of other stuff.

I might as well add that I don't believe in God, but I think it's good to know the theist's arguments and way of justifying their beliefs so you can get a clear picture.

Maler, I find it interesting that you use the phrase 'God actually lives'. I always thought that as a divine being, God doesn't live as such, God is eternal. You might also find a few answers on the website if you're having doubts about your religion (I'm assuming you're Christian here, so sorry if you're not, no offence meant.).

this could get really ugly really quickly, but i'm glad it hasn't yet.
personally, i was raised to believe in god, and i don't. i don't really like the idea of utter insignificance (ie, you live, you die, you get one life and after that, that's it, no more you), but i suppose after i'm gone it's not like i'll exist to argue. there's more to my opinions than that, but i'll leave it at harmless for now

My parents never forced any religious beliefs onto me, which I'm very grateful for. Currently I don't believe in a god, but I reserve my right to change my mind.

Jez wrote:Maler, I find it interesting that you use the phrase 'God actually lives'. I always thought that as a divine being, God doesn't live as such, God is eternal. You might also find a few answers on the website if you're having doubts about your religion (I'm assuming you're Christian here, so sorry if you're not, no offence meant.).

Sorry I meant exists.

Jez wrote:For all you atheists... take a look at this link:
http://christiananswers.net/q-aiia/questions-for-skeptics.html

The site wrote:In order to be fair in the debate about matters of faith, it's not just the Christian who must be called to the witness stand. Even those who dispute or who otherwise persist in voicing skepticism about Christianity have some questions to answer.

Well, there's the first flaw. The onus is on the Christians to prove it. Someone being unable to disprove a point someone else makes in favour of Christianity doesn't really mean anything. It only takes one point to falsify it.

1. How do you explain the high degree of design and order in the universe?

By natural selection?

3. Since absolutely no Bible prophecy has ever failed (and there are hundreds), how can one realistically remain unconvinced that the Bible is of Divine origin?

I love it when people say this. Guess where those prophecies that are written in the Bible are then documented as being fulfilled?

5. Are you able to live consistently with your present worldview?

Yes. It seems lots of people are.

6. Wouldn't it make better sense, even pragmatically, to live as though the God of the Bible does exist than as though He doesn't?

Pragmatically?
And, no. No it wouldn't, not really, no. I'd waste a lot of time worrying, and bearing prejudices that I couldn't justify.

7. In what sense was Jesus a 'Good Man' if He was lying in His claim to be God?

What the ~*iguana*~?

9. If the Bible is not true, why is it so universally regarded as the 'Good Book'?

Oh, dear. Only question 9 of 44, and the barrel is scraped clean. And question 9 continues..

Are you aware that the Old Testament alone claims to be God's inspired word at least 2600 times?

"How could I have been so stupid?! I forgot that saying something 2,600 times makes it true."

Did you know that the Bible has been the number one best-seller every year since the 1436 invention of the Gutenberg printing press?

Hey, and the Quran is second, I guess that's almost as true. And The Little Prince is third. At least that has some value to it.

10. From whence comes humanity's universal moral sense?

That's true. We're all too dumb to reason for ourselves, we need someone to tell us all what to do. We'd never have thought to detest gay people by ourselves. (Hey, that's probably true!)

11. If man is nothing but the random arrangement of molecules, what motivates you to care and to live honorably in the world?

I find that point to be a horrible reflection on whoever made it. It says, I only care to live honorably in the world because I believe I've been told to.

12. Explain how personality could have ever evolved from the impersonal, or how order could have ever resulted from chaos.

Oh, I dunno. It's kinda like the perfect world that God created becoming imperfect.

13. If Jesus' resurrection was faked, why would twelve intelligent men (Jesus' disciples) have died for what they knew to be a lie?

How many people have died in the name of Allah? Or Hitler? Excuse the irony, but Jesus Christ...

Time for bed. Maybe I'll answer some more another time. Seriously, though,

The Christain Website wrote:44. What would be required to persuade you to become a believer?

A miracle. If I see someone part the sea, I'm in.

Ah Kinders I think I love you just a tinsy wincy little bit.

7. In what sense was Jesus a 'Good Man' if He was lying in His claim to be God?

That's the best one.

Personally I wouldn't sully the good name of Jesus Christ by believing he actually said he was the son of god.

Why in the world does that site have the quote "Most people are bothered by those passages of Scripture that they do not understand. But the passages that bother me are the ones I do understand" - Mark Twain. (Near #23)

Am I missing something here? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Mark Twain against orginized religions, and therefore wouldn't that quote be very much out of place?

Ah... I was waiting for someone to rip up the questions for atheists. *applauds* Many of the questions are pretty stupid, as you've shown Kinders, but of course explaining reality with science is still problematic.

What I really found funny was their suggestion that atheists believe in God as an insurance policy, just in case there really is a Heaven and Hell, then that means we won't be condemned to hell, and if there is no God, well, we haven't lost anything. To me this seems as though they are missing the point entirely...

This thread is going to turn into one of two things; atheists being all arrogant and backslapping "hur hur, look 'ow much better we is dan duh stoopid christians", or a big old fight with the handful of religous folks we have around here. Either way, I give it a few days before it'll almost certainly have to be locked. meh.

*is so very glad he no longer cares either way*

To say categorically, "There is no God," is to make an absolute statement. For the statement to be true, I must know for certain that there is no God in the entire universe. No human being has all knowledge. Therefore, none of us is able to truthfully make this assertion.

This quote is from the same website (Christiananswers). It's an argument against the existence of atheists - basically saying that the atheist position is untenable. Unfortunately, the author doesn't seem to have realised that this argument also applies to theists. Saying 'There is a God' or 'God exists' is also making an absolute statement according to their argument. So one would have to accept that neither position works.

Perhaps it would be easier just to sit on the fence and call myself an agnostic...

Qu Klaani wrote:atheists being all arrogant and backslapping

This can work both ways. Perhaps you could accuse atheists of being arrogant by saying all the world religions are wrong, but then Christians are doing the same thing by saying only their position is right.

You misunderstood me, I dont mean to say that atheists are arrogant, cause its a stupid generalisation, but that because there are so few religous members of this board who'll actually get into a debate theres a good chance this thread will just be atheists "me-tooing" and being self congratulatory for page after page. Im sure on a more religously biased forum it could easily end up the other way round, and probably would.

Qu Klaani wrote:You misunderstood me, I dont mean to say that atheists are arrogant, cause its a stupid generalisation, but that because there are so few religous members of this board who'll actually get into a debate theres a good chance this thread will just be atheists "me-tooing" and being self congratulatory for page after page. Im sure on a more religously biased forum it could easily end up the other way round, and probably would.

Bugger. Does that mean that we can't discuss it at all then? Personally, I like these sort of debates. And I included the link to show that it's not just Christians who have to defend their view of the world. The atheist view is just as debatable as the theist's view, although the majority of the questions the website gives aren't that difficult to answer. Unfortunately, for the scientific ones, I just have to say I don't know the answer.

Certainly it can be discussed, but I just have difficulty seeing this thread going anywhere interesting.

Qu Klaani edit - You ever insult another user (except mebbe a troll, or Alec, cause he likes it) like that again and I will ban you in an instant. Hell I dont even care about most of it, disagreeing with me isnt exactly uncommon round these parts, but the snipey, off-topic, blatant baiting is easily a bannable offence. I wont, cause I'd like to think this is a one off and Ive never seen the like of from you before, but consider yourself informally warned for the timebeing.

dar, jesus DID claim to be the son of god. he refused to deny it under pain of death. i'm sure anyone with a bible can happily find you exact words. (i refuse to be that someone)

I think Darragh was suggesting that there's a possibility that perhaps the Bible isn't entirely accurate. And I think all that Qu Klaani was saying was that because the basis of this thread is a debate about whether God exists which has inevitably turned into a debate about religion, it's gonna be very one-sided, because, since our old mate aceblade left, there's nobody around to militantly defend the Christian view.

The bible claimed that Jesus said he was the son of god. Awh man, less of the aggro, that's not what these boards are about....oh, wait.