The Republic of Heaven

Have to say I find it hard to understand why everyone has to be so touchy these days. When I was a nipper, we took name-calling in our stride. We would get scant sympathy from our parents or teachers. Either we gave back as good as we got, or we chanted the mantra “Sticks and stones may break my bones, But words can never hurt me.”

I enjoy a good barney, me. A full and frank exchange of opinions can be very entertaining and satisfying, especially when the insults become increasingly original and creative. People should toughen up and not be so thin-skinned. In my young days, harrumph (cont’d p. 94)

Name-calling can be taken in your stride, but it's a bit much if the words people are using to denigrate other people are an adjective for you (if you're gay). It'd be like me calling people "such a ~*iguana*~ Ultracommando" all the time. Or calling people "black" and then saying "oh, I don't mean the race! it's just an insult here." Ultracommando does seem very uninformed about why it might be that "gay" has become an insult; the word didn't just arrive as one by magic. I've talked to Australians about the use of "gay" before; it really does seem it's worse over there. None of them seemed very concerned about using it either.

Anyway; enough talk about this whole business. No more posts on it please.

Peter wrote:

furbaby wrote:Ah, the eternal evolution of the English language with its shifting meanings ....

How would you feel if your name was Gay? I have met a few people with this name.

I've been to his house - well, looked at it from the outside

Been using Google Street Maps new photo-thingy?

Will wrote:

Peter wrote:

furbaby wrote:Ah, the eternal evolution of the English language with its shifting meanings ....

How would you feel if your name was Gay? I have met a few people with this name.

I've been to his house - well, looked at it from the outside

Been using Google Street Maps new photo-thingy?

No, it was a couple of years ago. John Gay's house isn't so very far from here - nearish to Windsor. He wrote The Beggar's Opera which famously "made Gay rich and Rich (the producer) gay".

Will wrote: "gay" has become an insult; the word didn't just arrive as one by magic.

That's what I meant before about shifting meanings. An interesting subject that merits its own thread. Remember it's only comparatively recently that "gay" has been adopted to mean homosexual.

I can think of three (heterosexual) people of my acquaintance (two female and one male) whose first name is Gay. It didn't mean homosexual when their parents chose the name. Nor, obviously, was it an insult. Unfortunate.

furbaby wrote:

Will wrote: "gay" has become an insult; the word didn't just arrive as one by magic.

That's what I meant before about shifting meanings. An interesting subject that merits its own thread. Remember it's only comparatively recently that "gay" has been adopted to mean homosexual.

I can think of three (heterosexual) people of my acquaintance (two female and one male) whose first name is Gay. It didn't mean homosexual when their parents chose the name. Nor, obviously, was it an insult. Unfortunate.

How old are these acquaintances?

some web site or other wrote:The use of gay for homosexual first appeared in print 1933 in Noel Ersine's "Dictionary of Underworld Slang" as 'gay cat' to mean homosexual boy

We can reasonably assume that in order to make it to print "gay" was in oral use for a year or two before. So it's more the case that the G word was previously only used in that sense as part of an argot, rather than generally, and that the parents simply didn't know.

As for the present day:

The BBC Board of Governors wrote:The word 'gay' ... need not be offensive... or homophobic... The governors said, however, that Moyles was simply keeping up with developments in English usage. [...] The committee... was "familiar with hearing this word in this context." The governors believed that in describing a ring tone as 'gay', the DJ was conveying that he thought it was 'rubbish', rather than 'homosexual'. [...] The panel acknowledged however that this use... in a derogatory sense... could cause offence in some listeners, and counselled caution on its use.

My italics. I think we should do the same.

furbaby wrote:

Will wrote: "gay" has become an insult; the word didn't just arrive as one by magic.

That's what I meant before about shifting meanings. An interesting subject that merits its own thread. Remember it's only comparatively recently that "gay" has been adopted to mean homosexual.

Down here, it only came to mean "homosexual" ten to fifteen years ago, and "stupid" seven to eight years ago. I think Will pointed out that here it might have evolved differently to in the UK or US; here it generally means stupid or retardec (when used as an insult, obviously).

I can think of three (heterosexual) people of my acquaintance (two female and one male) whose first name is Gay. It didn't mean homosexual when their parents chose the name.

That must be a hard life. I feel deeply sorry for them.

Will wrote:Ultracommando does seem very uninformed about why it might be that "gay" has become an insult; the word didn't just arrive as one by magic.

Yes I am aware of how it came to be an insult, it's just that in my area it's become so detached from its former meanings (remember it used to mean happy) that when used as an insult it no longer has those connotations. It's totally unlike the whole comparison with calling something black analogy that's being thrown around; I have never seen that used as an insult, and none of those have (to my knowledge anyway), lost the connotations you are suggesting. Saying "you're gay" doesn't mean "you're homosexual", in this context; it means something more like "you're an idiot"- it's no more forceful than saying that someone is retarded. It just hasn't got that meaning in this context anymore, which is probably why I found it a little wierd that several people on this thread took so much offence to it. You see, if I had written "that carriage looks crap" (which is what it now says), most people I know would have barely noticed the difference-just doesn't happen. Perhpas it hasn't caught on elsewhere in the world just yet.

If we ever can get back to the original problem that sparked this thread in the first place (or am I asking too much ), I don't see much of a problem- I've never thought about the issue of who are fans of what. If the film adaptation is crap, then don't watch it. It's pretty much that simple.

There's a long-standing and honourable tradition of members of groups adopting pejoratives for their own exclusive use and thereby reversing their effects.

So gays call themselves "queer", Afro-Americans call themselves "niggaz" and I won't mind at all, dear Ultry, if you refer to yourself as a "crim".

OK?

Peter wrote:There's a long-standing and honourable tradition of members of groups adopting pejoratives for their own exclusive use and thereby reversing their effects.

So gays call themselves "queer", Afro-Americans call themselves "niggaz" and I won't mind at all, dear Ultry, if you refer to yourself as a "crim".

OK?

It's "Ultra" if you don't mind.

As for your previous post about the DJ (I didn't actually notice it until now, because I'd had this page open for a few minutes before posting a reply to furbaby's, so I didn't see), note that it was created by the BBC, which happens to be on a totally different section of the planet to where I am, where the way the DJ used it has become so common that people just don't notice anymore. Just like I've said before, Will noticed the same thing.

EDIT:

Darragh wrote:

Wow. I must be the only sraffie in existence still capable of vomprehending the literary device know as "sarcasm". Get a grip!

Get some sense! If you just apologised when I told you too your reputation wouldnt be completely ruined on this forum. Vomprehend that.

Vomprehended. Meanwhile, I think you failed to point that the part of the psot your reply is referring to was by someone whose post seemed to think I actually meant the carriage looked homosexual, which I do not, as you managed to work out after a few posts. You see, after I pointed out that my post was sarcastic, you reacted in a way that suggested that I seriously meant the carriage was homosexual, for whatever reason. This was followed by a string of insults and fallacies in an attempt to dodge the point that where I'm from, the word "gay" isn't actually a very offensive insult, so, not having travelled very widely, I probably wasn't aware that elsewhere on the planet it still is. You then go on to claim that I am somehow claiming that gay people are bad and that I am equivalent to racists and anti-semites. Remember, of course, that all of this is based on one word in a post on a random forum. I use your analogy:

"Hey that carriage looks dumb" "What, Jewish?" "Yeah that thing looks mega jewish....and also black."

The main issue I have here is that your "equivalent" uses insults that are quite obviously directly related to certain ethnic (afro-americans and jews) and the insult is primarily based on them being such (sort of like how "~*ninja*~" is an extremely offensive term for african-americans). The problem is that my usage of the word had no homosexual connotations whatsoever. I apoplogise if you didn't realise, but where I am, that's how it woudl be interpreted. Apologies for forgetting that perhaps elsewhere this would not be the case, but I think you would probably understand if I don't analyse the international variations in definition of each word I type.

Before this goes on any further, if I did offend anyone with my choice of wording, I do apologise- it wasn't meant in the slightest. I seriously didn't think that used in this context it would mean anything more than "stupid". Bit of a case of misunderstanding, I think. As I mentioned before, Will pointed out that the word gay probably has different meanings and is used in different ways down here, so I really didn't think this would offend anyone. If you asked most people I know, I reckon you'd probably get the same reply. It just doesn't have that meaning anymore. Nobody I know woud feel strongly about it at all.

Now that I know certain members of this site do actually feel strongly about usage of this word, you have my guarantee that I won't use it again.

I think that sums it up: I honsetly didn't expect anyone to take it in this way. Will has put it quite nicely.

Blah, blah, blah...the insult gay stemmed from homophobia.

Darragh wrote:Blah, blah, blah...the insult gay stemmed from homophobia.

I blame Parker and Stone... (yes, I know they're both gay homosexuals)

the insult gay stemmed from homophobia

Perhaps it did, but words have a way of taking on a life of their own. I think it's a fascinating subject.

Although a living, evolving language is a wonderful thing, I must confess to being annoyed when words lose their proper meaning from being wrongly used in ignorance. Example: "decimated", which actually means "reduced by ten per cent". It is now commonly used to mean "all but wiped out".

"Ignorant" itself is a funny one. It is now often used as a synonym for rude or unmannerly. My mother and many of her contemporaries used to say of breaches of good manners. "X is just ignorant", meaning "X doesn't know any better".

Ok, here is an end to this crap. I don't care about the etymology of the word. I don't care if where you come from it's ok to insult something or someone by calling it gay. I don't care if you thought the carriage looks camp (which I believe is what you were getting at).

What I care about is that by you insulting something by calling it gay, you are insinuating that being gay is bad. As a result, you are calling me and several of my friends and loved ones bad.

It is offensive and, as per the forum guide, it is not allowed. Do not use such insults in the future as they offend and insult several members of this forum.

Thank you.

@ Furbaby - just because when you were a kid they didn't something doesn't make it right. When you were a kid (this is an assumption because I don't quite know how old you are, you keep saying you're a granny but I don't think you've ever stated your age) black people had to give up their seats to white people on buses and weren't allowed to vote (in the Deep South). Aren't we all glad that's changed? Same goes for insulting people for their sexual orientation, race, religion, hair colour and bubble gum flavour. It should be stopped. Yes, that is a Gil Grissom quote. No I won't apologise for it.

Soapy wrote:
@ Furbaby - just because when you were a kid they didn't something doesn't make it right.

Agreed. It doesn't necessarily make it wrong either.

I just feel that nowadays people are encouraged to be over-sensitive, to take things too personally, to find offence where often none is intended; and to be too harsh and judgemental on others. I think those of us who just shrug these things off as minor irritations are happier and healthier than those who turn them into huge issues.

you keep saying you're a granny

I don't believe I've ever said that here. I do not in fact have any grandchildren. (Not that having grandchildren is much of a clue as to someone's age.)

furbaby wrote:

you keep saying you're a granny

I don't believe I've ever said that here. I do not in fact have any grandchildren. (Not that having grandchildren is much of a clue as to someone's age.)

You once said you were old enough to be Rosie's grandmother. Which isn't true since you'd have to be... well... very old for that, but if you assumed she was a teen then yeah.

Am locking this thread now anyway.