The Republic of Heaven

Does it say in the novel anywhere who wins the final battle? Both sides lose their leader and other casulaties are not mentioned. That battle was pretty climactic (apparently there were millions on both sides), so it would be interesting to see who won.

BTW, how did Asriel set up so much stuff and build such a huge army in a couple of weeks? Perhaps he'd been planning this for a long time beforehand.

Somewhere near the end of TAS it's said that the Church was in disarray after the war. I'll find the exact quote when I have more time, but even though Asriel didn't eradicate the Church, I would say his side still came out on top.

Leif wrote:Somewhere near the end of TAS it's said that the Church was in disarray after the war. I'll find the exact quote when I have more time, but even though Asriel didn't eradicate the Church, I would say his side still came out on top.

Asriel wasn't actually at war with the church. I don't think they even contributed many forces to the war. The war was primarily against heaven itself.

I think you might be right though- if the church is in disarray, chances are that was a direct result of the war.

The Authority and Metatron both perished, so I'd say that's a heavy blow for their side. Then again, Asriel didn't make it either and his Republic was doomed to fail anyway. Neither side did very well out of it, really.

It was Lyra and Will who achieved the crucial victory.

Asriel won the battle because he was the goodie.. Goodies always win

If I remember it correctly, Asriel's forces repelled the Authority's attack on the Republic's fortress, the Authority itself was killed and so was Metatron.
It could be that the war isn't over, but Asriel still won the great battle, even though he sacrificed himself to finish off Metatron. The Church is left without both their God and his arch angel.

brynjarbjorn wrote:he Church is left without both their God and his arch angel.

This is going a bit off-topic but that's an interesting point, Bryn. Do you think that Lyra's Church is aware of their God, aware enough to know they lost him?

I mean our churches have built themselves around the idea of gods and angels...but they don't actually exist. Well, I suppose that's my opinion, but they at least aren't tangible and visible like in Lyra's world.

It seems that the L-world Church was bending over backwards to protect the Kingdom but it didn't seem as though Metatron or anyone else up there was too concerned with destroying Lyra or even helping their followers until Asriel brought the war to them.

Mockingbird wrote:

brynjarbjorn wrote:he Church is left without both their God and his arch angel.

This is going a bit off-topic but that's an interesting point, Bryn. Do you think that Lyra's Church is aware of their God, aware enough to know they lost him?

I mean our churches have built themselves around the idea of gods and angels...but they don't actually exist. Well, I suppose that's my opinion, but they at least aren't tangible and visible like in Lyra's world.

It seems that the L-world Church was bending over backwards to protect the Kingdom but it didn't seem as though Metatron or anyone else up there was too concerned with destroying Lyra or even helping their followers until Asriel brought the war to them.

Yeah it's an interesting notion, I think it's rather likely that the Church won't notice the absence of the Authority, also there weren't that many witnesses to his demise.
And even if some high ranking official of the Church had seen the Authority die, he probably wouldn't have gone around revealing it to the others back in Lyra's World.
It doesn't show in the books that the Authority or Metatron had much contact with their followers.

So then, technically, even if the whole Kingdom of Heaven and everything about it was destroyed, no one would know about it and what PP thinks are the bad things about organized religion would stay the same. So really the battle means nothing. (I hate this stupid loop hole.) Does anyone agree with me?

Neither, the Republic of Heaven was destroyeed, but it never truely existed anyway and would have lost eventually from natural wastage. However the Kingdom could be said to have lost more-it will eventually fade adn the new republic of heaven will rise.

Short Term: Kingdom
Long: Republic

cassingtonscholar wrote:So then, technically, even if the whole Kingdom of Heaven and everything about it was destroyed, no one would know about it and what PP thinks are the bad things about organized religion would stay the same. So really the battle means nothing. (I hate this stupid loop hole.) Does anyone agree with me?

I agree with you. In Lyra's world at least, little has changed, except perhaps for the witches, who were aware of the war and the outcome. The Gyptians probably also know. The majority of humanity, I think, is probably oblivious, and the Magisterium will stamp out any memory of it.

For the rest of the worlds, it's probably the same, although those that gave a lot of support may have been altered.

The world of the dead is definitely worth mentioning. Because of Will and Lyra, it's basically obsolete now which is a huge blow to the church. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most religions are driven by the promise of an afterlife. According to the church, people who followed their guidelines would go to heaven when they die, and the rest would go to hell. This, of course, ended up being a lie; everyone went to the world of the dead. But now there is another option.

Unfortunately, we don't know if the living know this. Near the end of TAS, there seems to be a fair amount of rational people who believe Lyra's story. So, unless we get answers in tBoD, I think it'll stay a mystery...

Leif wrote:Unfortunately, we don't know if the living know this. Near the end of TAS, there seems to be a fair amount of rational people who believe Lyra's story.

Not enough to change the viewpoint of most of the world, a world which is also firmly under the control of a conservative church

But at least when people die, they won't be stuck in what is basically a prison camp. That's got to be some kind of victory, hasn't it, even if most people aren't aware of it?

Yes, it's one of those crucial battles which make life (and death) a whole lot better for everyone, but the people who made the changes will never be recognised.

Lyra survived, so Asriel won.

Lyra_B_S wrote:Lyra survived, so Asriel won.

To add to that, Lyra and Will completed the prophesy put upon them that the Kingdom didn't want to happen, so the Republic did win the battle.

But the war hasn't really even ended--the ending of Spyglass has Lyra planning to rebuild the Republic in her world, so really, the battle ended in a semi-stalemate.

You really thought that over, but I completely agree. That makes it 1 Asriel, 1 Authority. Wait the Authority died so doesn't that make the war over?

doesn't at the end it says the church actually got stronger?

yesac113 wrote:doesn't at the end it says the church actually got stronger?

For a short period, but it then started to fight amongst itself.