The Republic of Heaven

Just another point on the many world theory. I know most of maths behind it (It all ahppens on a sub-atomic level guys,) but technically everytime ANYTHING changed then another dozen or so Lyras and Will would have split off, millions every second.

So basically, Lyra and Will could not have failed, becuase one of the versions of them would have made the right choice, in fact millions of them probably made it...

I know it's all hypothetical but it is a probalem with a plotline that presumes the 'many worlds' theory is true.

Here's a thing I've always wondered. If Lyra hadn't sneaked in to the retiring room, and Asriel had been murdered, and then Roger hadn't been taken by the Gobblers, would Lyra and Roger have fallen in love?

siren_darkstarr wrote:Here's a thing I've always wondered. If Lyra hadn't sneaked in to the retiring room, and Asriel had been murdered, and then Roger hadn't been taken by the Gobblers, would Lyra and Roger have fallen in love?

I get the point.

And yes they would...

in some universe...

somewhere everyone falls in love.

You could, of course, make the argument that because Lyra is Eve, she would get the privilege of being the only Lyra...or perhaps the Authority eliminated some of the other Lyras, so eventually there was only her...am I getting through?

And Lyra and Roger...there is that bit TAS, in the world of the dead, the the ghost Roger notices the more than friends to the core connection Lyra and Will have. I think I remembered him being sad or envious, because it was his Lyra, his leader. Then again, wouldn't someone as...volatile, or dramatic as Lyra be better matched with someone of equal strength and vigor?

silversong wrote:You could, of course, make the argument that because Lyra is Eve, she would get the privilege of being the only Lyra...or perhaps the Authority eliminated some of the other Lyras, so eventually there was only her...am I getting through?

And Lyra and Roger...there is that bit TAS, in the world of the dead, the the ghost Roger notices the more than friends to the core connection Lyra and Will have. I think I remembered him being sad or envious, because it was his Lyra, his leader. Then again, wouldn't someone as...volatile, or dramatic as Lyra be better matched with someone of equal strength and vigor?

I'd agree with that point, it's almost impossable to think of Lyra being iwn love with Rodger, he's just too weak.

Thats certainly a arguement, but could the authority eliminate that many lyras?

I've wondered about this before. To be honest if you think about it too much, you just end up going in circles so i think for the sake of the story it's best to grant PP a few creative liberties at this point.

[AUST wrote]
[Thats certainly a arguement, but could the authority eliminate that many lyras?]

But is there only one authority, or could there be more than one? Without the exact odds, it's a little hard to guess...[/b][/quote]

silversong wrote:[AUST wrote]
[Thats certainly a arguement, but could the authority eliminate that many lyras?]

But is there only one authority, or could there be more than one? Without the exact odds, it's a little hard to guess...[/b]

[/quote]
There could be millions (using the wstring theory there ARE millions) after all the Authority is just the 'leader' of the church, there coluld be hundreds of 'gods' leading imaginary relgions. The Authoritys just the biggest one.

Here's a thing I've always wondered. If Lyra hadn't sneaked in to the retiring room, and Asriel had been murdered, and then Roger hadn't been taken by the Gobblers, would Lyra and Roger have fallen in love?

I don't think so.
At first we can talk about destiny of the heroes, about the prophecy about Lyra, but that's not convincing. =)
Moreover, Lyra and Roger were just friends that played together. A lot of things had influenced Lyra and Will so that they fell in love: they had experienced all their adventures, they had travelled to the land of dead, at last they had met Mary and she told them stories. Lyra has changed a lot. The "old" Lyra wouldn't ever have thought about love and so on, she would have been childish.

(Grrrrr, I think my english is awful and I'm beginning to forget how to speak this wonderful language )

Wait, why would Roger've not been taken by the Gobblers because of Asriel's death?

yeah, he'd still ahve been taken...

Guys, no where in the books does it ever say there are copies of people in every world. Lyra just thought that because of Boreal/Latrom being in both. So there was only one Will/Lyra set. It's kind of like yall's infinite number of subtle knives theory; there was an artifact like it that deals with dust, like the alethiometer, but not the same thing in every world.

But would PP have mentioned the other copies of people if it wasn't relevant?

Mot Pulk wrote:Guys, no where in the books does it ever say there are copies of people in every world. Lyra just thought that because of Boreal/Latrom being in both. So there was only one Will/Lyra set. It's kind of like yall's infinite number of subtle knives theory; there was an artifact like it that deals with dust, like the alethiometer, but not the same thing in every world.

I was just saying that, according to the theory, millions of Lyras and Wills are created at every second.

According to certain theories. We don't really know if any of these theories conform to the multiverse of HDM.

The general notion of parallel worlds in our reality would involve every arrangement of everything in the universe imaginable many times over. There would be versions of you that never visit this forum, that already have children, etc. Basically every decision--nay, beyond that, every interaction between even the smallest particles--happens in every way possible, and each time there are different possible outcomes, another universe is formed.

However, if we try to apply this idea to HDM, it starts making less sense. It would mean that, while there are versions of Lyra and Will that succeed, there are others who fail. While there is the world of the dead that they visit and free the dead from, there is another in which they might not get past the harpies?

Then there's more than one Authority, many of whom might claim to be God? And yet there's no mention of this whatsoever.

I think we have to say that the many worlds of HDM account for different possibilities for what could have happened, but strictly speaking, they can't account for all possibilities, or else there would be some hint of this.

In other words, there are certain things about HDM-verse that are universal even across the many worlds. The world of the dead, for example. It'd be easy enough to introduce an alternate HDM multiverse in which things do happen differently, but for some reason, it would have to be cut off from the one we know.

It's better to look at the HDM reality as one that is just one reality, instead of many parallel worlds. It's just got different layers to explore.

Huginn wrote:However, if we try to apply this idea to HDM, it starts making less sense. It would mean that, while there are versions of Lyra and Will that succeed, there are others who fail. While there is the world of the dead that they visit and free the dead from, there is another in which they might not get past the harpies?

That would also mean that there are infinite versions of the world of the dead? But clearly in the HDM world there is intended to be only one world of the dead.

The infinite number of worlds theory doesn't work very well with HDM. I think it was stressed several times in the books just how unique Will and Lyra are. They have a destiny to fulfil and only they can do it. The idea of many other Wills and Lyras who failed doesn't mesh with that notion in my opinion.

I prefer to think of the HDM multiverse having a finite number of worlds. Once you get into all this mathematical probability stuff, I'm completely lost.

As a friend of mine said: "With infinite universes everything is possible, and that is the problem."

Jez wrote:

Huginn wrote:However, if we try to apply this idea to HDM, it starts making less sense. It would mean that, while there are versions of Lyra and Will that succeed, there are others who fail. While there is the world of the dead that they visit and free the dead from, there is another in which they might not get past the harpies?

That would also mean that there are infinite versions of the world of the dead? But clearly in the HDM world there is intended to be only one world of the dead.

The infinite number of worlds theory doesn't work very well with HDM. I think it was stressed several times in the books just how unique Will and Lyra are. They have a destiny to fulfil and only they can do it. The idea of many other Wills and Lyras who failed doesn't mesh with that notion in my opinion.

I prefer to think of the HDM multiverse having a finite number of worlds. Once you get into all this mathematical probability stuff, I'm completely lost.

It took me a while to udnerstand it.

I can't remember wether it was a theory posted here, or if it was actually written in the book, but somewhere I read that a new world was created every time a choice took place, or when an incident had several possible outcomes. Anyway, if this is so, how come we don't come across a Will from yet another world who also meets another Lyra in Cittagazze? If there were an almost infinite amount of worlds, wouldn't at least a bunch of the Wills therein find their way to the same Cittagazze? Wouldn't there perhaps somewhere, in some world, be a Will and a Lyra who failed to destroy death and so on?
Anyway, just a few thoughts. I haven't thought them through very thoroughly, but still, I would love it if someone would give me their thoughts.

There's a discussion about this in an already existing thread, so I shall merge this with that.

It's here