The Republic of Heaven

Mrs.Coulter did all those evil things, but when she committed the ultimate sacrifice - don't forget the way she and Asriel died, their particles will not even get to live on in the universe - did she redeem herself; should we grant her our absolution? Or did she just succumb to an overwhelming maternal instinict, and do we still despise her for her wicked nature? Or do we take the view of Mary Malone and Lyra:

"I came to believe that good and evil are names for what people do, not for what they are. All we can say is that this is a good deed, because it helps someone, or that's an evil one, because it hurts them. People are too complicated for simple labels."

If we take this view, as I do, then to answer the question one must consider whether her final act was good enough to outweigh all the bad ones throughout her life. My view, given that it saved Lyra and thus all conscious life, is yes, it did to an incalculabe degree.

Here's something I wrote months before reading His Dark Materials, I didn't appreciate it much at the time - it was just an answer to a question, but now I think it has more relevance then I knew:

You are who you are, a way of being; a person is in truth only a perspective upon reality; anything you do is merely an inevitable reaction to the configuration of reality seen through your perspective at any given time. Thus, if you know someone's situation throughout the time that effects that moment, you can judge their perspective and therefore who they are by observing their actions.

Another thing - I don't recall the name of her dæmon ever being mentioned - is it nameless?

Finally, what do people think she intended to do when she picked up the gun in the Adamant Tower?

The name of her daemon is never mentioned in the books, but it was in the radio version.
I am not going to vote because I do not hold either opinion. A person can not be described as good or evil, only their actions. She did many bad things in her time and hame a lot of people suffer, but that final act was one of selflessness and kindness. That is one of the reasons why I like HDM. There are no one-dimensional 'bad-guys'. People's motive's are explained and they do mixed acts of kindness and cruelty, like in real life.

Yes, and damn, I intended to quote Mary Malone saying that, and write something concerning it, but I forgot during the time Bridge to the Stars wouldn't load. I'll edit it in now...

It seems to me that Mrs. Coulter's love for Lyra is her only reedeeming factor, as twisted and weird as that may seem. But ultimately, the actions she takes against the church, and the Authority are all actions that will save Lyra in some way. There is the bomb, and even her leaping into the abyss with Asriel is not an action taken to save humanity but to save the daughter she loves.

I voted yes, even though I have suspicions about Mrs. Coulter's character and even a few of her motives, but still, by the end of TAS, I could almost like her character.

Yes, the way her dæmon fought to get those hairs out of the bomb was incredible after his pure malice in the past. It just shows you the power of Lyra, doesn't it.

i'm not really good at this but i'll try to explain what i'm saying as best i can.

maybe the fact that her dæmon didn't have a name is because you can't just name someone good or evil. it's about someone's actions and whether you help or hurt people in the process like mary malone said. it's like mrs. coulter (who is rarely referred to as marisa) and her dæmon symbolise the ambiguity in human nature. how we can be good or evil. but there is always something behind our actions--there is always something more to what we do. marisa's greed or love for lyra. so you can't name someone good or evil because it doesn't matter. it's the underlying motive or the ultimate outcome of someone's actions. so mrs. coulter's dæmon isn't named and mrs. coulter is rarely referred to as marisa.

does that make sence? what do you think?

I agree that Pullman left the golden monkey nameless due to its malicious nature, and I also agree that Mrs.Coulter is referred to in that very formal manner, while other characters are usually referred to by first names to create a kind of further detachment between her/her dæmon and the reader. In a similar way, before No-Name goes all nice and cuddly (one of the few aspects on the books I raised an eyebrow at) she, as that name would suggest, had no real name. Then after her transformation, she did. So the correlation is definitely there.

Incidentally, the bespoke harpy also redeemed herself in an incident involving Lyra and the abyss. While I'm here, I have to mention how vivid and emotive that whole scene was, playing out in slow motion, with Will's shout of LYRA!!! rebounding off the walls on all sides of the chasm.

I think that Coulter's sacrifice makes up for all her evil deeds. Hurling yourself into The Abyss is the ultimate sacrifice, 'Forever concious, forever falling...'

I think Mrs Coulter showed remorse in the end for all her crimes, didn't she?

abc wrote:That is one of the reasons why I like HDM. There are no one-dimensional 'bad-guys'.

Father Gomez and the rest of the church, anyone? o.O

Max wrote:Yes, the way her dæmon fought to get those hairs out of the bomb was incredible after his pure malice in the past. It just shows you the power of Lyra, doesn't it.

Personally I believe she never redeemed herself, even at the end. Especially if her selfless act was only inspired because of Lyra's apparent 'importance' in the grand scheme of things. That's basically the equivelant of saying 'I'll be evil to everyone who doesn't help my cause' which is base prejudice really, when you get down to it. Sure, it was Marisa Coulter herself who helped Lyra ultimately by throwing herself into the abyss-but only once every other option had been exhausted by her. She consistently worked to her own agenda throught the trilogy, trying to keep Lyra under her control so she would be in control of her power. Once Lyra slipped away from her for good then her ambition was thwarted, and she had nothing better to do than prove her defiance by standing up to Metatron. She was just unable to acknowledge that she could be an insignificant player in the scheme of things, and so she made sure she wasn't. I don't really see *that* as redemption. It was just the last desperate act of a woman driven by the desire to prove her power.

Crazy Bear Mc.Gubbins wrote:

abc wrote:That is one of the reasons why I like HDM. There are no one-dimensional 'bad-guys'.

Father Gomez and the rest of the church, anyone? o.O

I stand corrected (said the man in the orthopaedic shoes)
Btw, No Name did have a name before Gracious Wings, it was No Name! Clint Eastwood, anyone?

abc wrote:Btw, No Name did have a name before Gracious Wings, it was No Name! Clint Eastwood, anyone?

When Alfred Wainwright, who hand-wrote all those marvellous guides to the Lake District, died there was a plan to name a feature of the district after him - in particular the small mountain lake called Innominate Tarn. They didn't, thank goodness, a tarn called Innominate was just the sortb of thing that delighted Mr Wainwright.

It just shows you the power of Lyra, doesn't it.

Oh no, I reckon it shows you the power of love. Mrs. Coulters love for her daughter Lyra. I'm pretty sure that the golden monkey name was spoken. None of you might care but I kick some guess ass in a shooting competition and his/her (they never tell you the sex) was M. Coulter.

I'm pretty sure it was. Like Lord Asriels dæmon, its name was spoken of but not very often. Would you say that Lord Asriel was a false hero or not? I think that in NL he was portrayed as a false hero when he killed roger but was he still a false hero in the other two?

sam wrote:I'm pretty sure it was. Like Lord Asriels dæmon, its name was spoken of but not very often. Would you say that Lord Asriel was a false hero or not? I think that in NL he was portrayed as a false hero when he killed roger but was he still a false hero in the other two?

In my view, Lord Asriel is the greatest hero in all of them. Nothing at all would have changed without his deeds, and he wasn't prepared to let ultimately insignificant things like one child's life prevent him from doing them. His only weakness in all the worlds was Lyra.

I could do a full essay on just why Asriel is so valiantly heroic, but... I can't be bothered - not just right now anyway. I would be sure to cite the book's subtle suggestion that he is the devil reincarnate (although that's ambiguous, because this female 'Wisdom' character is presumably supposed to be the bible's Satan), his murder of the man about to kill his daughter, his spectacular traversing of the barrier between worlds, his construction of a fortress and assemblance of an army in defiance against heaven and god themselves, and his sacrifice at the abyss, fighting the very commander of Heaven to oblivion. All selflessly to free conscious life from its millienia long oppression.

For me, his ruthlessness is one of the many brilliant aspects of his character.

sam wrote:I'm pretty sure it was. Like Lord Asriels dæmon, its name was spoken of but not very often. Would you say that Lord Asriel was a false hero or not? I think that in NL he was portrayed as a false hero when he killed roger but was he still a false hero in the other two?

Neither he nor anybody else is heroic, in the sense that he and everybody else is morally ambivalent - just like real people. It's this absence of heroic stereotypes that helps to make it all so satisfying, for me at least.

I disagree. Okay, 'hero' is a bit of an inane word, but such as a character should be a 'hero', Asriel was. (See the my post as precedes this one)

Two different opinions. Im with Max. Dispite his false heor impression inNL he is a real hero of the worlds and (since its fiction) of the book.