The Republic of Heaven

Hi, I have this question regarding Specters

We know those poor people who get spectered will be indifferent, their daemons will be lost while they are still alive (not for long due to hunger, exposure, etc.)

So when they do die, what will happen?
It seem to me like they are without their soul, and will not remember anything.
So when they get to the underworld, how will they be able to get out by telling the harpies stories?!
They won't be able to because they will have no soul. The bodies are alive, but no one is upstairs.
When people die normally, their last moments were conscious, but the spectered people are not, so ...
????
Will the land of the dead be populated by spectered corpses?

This is an interesting question...

Also one that is horrible to consider.

Perhaps the spectres lose their hold on a person when they die. No one has their dæmon in the Land of the Dead anyway so one would assume that a soul that was made indifferent is perhaps in some kind of drunken stupor but when they die they are given the bucket of icy water treatment and regain their wits.

The whole idea of spectred souls in the underworld is not dealt with by Pullman - I would hope that if it was a significant point then there would have been some mention of aimlessly wandering souls (hang about, there are those anyway, those souls that had been in the Land of the Dead so long that they'd forgotton everything about themselves... hmmm) or reference to the souls of the dead that had been maimed by a spectre.

The spectres though are called the Spectres of indifference, they dont technically take away a persons conciousness, just their will to care or act on their impulses. It equally could well be that they are perfectly fine "upstairs" just incapable of actually doing anything about it...

I dont know... Its an interesting question that I dont think has been asked before... I would be interested to hear what others think!

I believe that someone who had been attacked by the spectres and then went to the land of the dead would be given special treatment due to their condition, however if not, then i would probably try and ask the harpies (when i died of course, not just on a random visit to the world of the dead for a cup of tea ) to accept my story as an offering to lead the spectre victims to the opening, it is of course a very interesting subject and will be expecting more views than just mine, but i would like to think that those who had full awareness of what is around them would be kind enough to help those who didn't, well that's what i would hope people would do.

Perhaps the spectres lose their hold on a person when they die

.

of course there is this possibility which i think would (even though the previous one shows people being more compassionate and kind) that this is the preferable option, because even though the book describes the world of the dead to be a place of endless nothingness would like to think that if there was a way out that seeing the world of the dead would just be another experience for my short but brilliant little blip into existance.

Any thoughts on what i just said would be welcomed,

Certainly an interesting subject!

As far as I'm aware the Spectres attack the daemon-the soul-not the actually spirit. So the Spectre victims should be okay, once they die presumably the body passes away and the spirit is set free-as is the ghost.

But a question, does that mean that once you left the world of the dead you would have no daemon to return to because they had been eaten

How horrible that would be

Any thoughts?

But a question, does that mean that once you left the world of the dead you would have no dæmon to return to because they had been eaten

How horrible that would be

Any thoughts?

Well, sad as that is, I think once you've basically disintigrated your particles would just be ecstatic to be free of the indifferent body and back into nature.
Plus, I don't think daemons are a seperate "being". That is, in Citagazze, none of the people had external daemons, right? That part of them is inside.
So a daemon dissapears as a person dies, or as they get spectred, because that conscious part of them is snuffed out.
So for a ghost that had a daemon while they were alive, finding his or her companion might be really important in his/her mind just because they've never really been separated.
It's not like going to heaven and meeting your family. Everyone is just going back into the world in a great big joyous mess of consciousness.

But a question, does that mean that once you left the world of the dead you would have no dæmon to return to because they had been eaten

How horrible that would be

Any thoughts?

The particals of the daemon still exist somewhere-and preusmably its coniousness does as well (Like HEsters did once she dissolved) preuming the Spectres dead then its out there.

Possibly a little off the subject but do we count a spectre as a conscience being, because they can obey orders, and seem to have some form of intelligence like how they spare Mrs Coulter because they believe that they would feed better by leaving her alive.

Just a question, sorry if it has already been mentioned, any thoughts?

Taking your soul wouldn't take your memories, memory is in the brain.

Doesn't everyone lose their daemon when they die anyway? I can't remember because I've not read it for so long.

Firstly it's the soul that knows to enjoy the memories, and secondly it's true that the daemon goes away but only into the air as atoms, the idea is that when you leave the world of the dead that you dissolve and rejoin you're daemon, but if your daemon is dead then you can't join them again, which was my main point.

Taking your soul wouldn't take your memories, memory is in the brain.

but that's kind of problematic 'cause the "soul" isn't located anywhere specific...

Except in the world of HDM of course Jessia, where it is located outside of the body, hehe!

Think of how psychological and medical sciences could progress in the future of Lyra's world where the separation between soul and mind is clearly established!

Though that probably poses even more questions than it answers!

Back on topic though,

Blossom, you're right, everyone loses their daemon when they die... the Boatman says that daemons cannot enter the world of the dead but disappear and become part of the living world - in much the same way as all the souls that eventually leave the Land of the Dead do.

owatts93darkmaterials fan I see what you are saying and I think you make an important point, all I can bring in to perhaps shed some light on the issue is that if there is this inextricable link between the body and the daemon then presumably neither can live without the other. Lyra says in TSK that there must be three parts to the soul \ mind... "I can think about myself and I can think about my daemon... so there must be another part of me left to do the thinking"... (Definitely misquoted, but its fairly accurate)

Perhaps this third part is what holds everything together. Perhaps that is what the spectres feed on. Perhaps that is why a spectred souls body still remains living in this kind of stasis or stupor. Thats a lot of perhaps's!

If the daemon is dead then it should still be reunited with its human eventually as a daemons death only disappates him\her into particles within the living world, there doesnt seem to be anything different going on as far as I know.

(Woo, its good to be back...)

Thank you Atrias and i agree that it is Great to be back, but what i'm questioning at the moment is whether spectres are considered consious?

Owatts, hehe oops I kinda missed that in your post!! Was early in the morning for me so excuse the lapse

I reckon spectres must have a certain kind of conciousness... otherwise they wouldn't do anything - much like the people they attack. I would be inclined to liken their conciousness to that of an animal, they arent necessarily capable of higher levels of thought but they can be trained or told what to do, plus they are largely motivated by instinct. This seems to me to fit the kind of conciousness of a spectre but other people can argue differently.

OT - Going off topic I almost wonder whether a spectre isn't the slither of "firmament" shall we say that is cut apart when a window is made... the bit that stops all the worlds spilling into eachother. It becomes lose from itself \ everything and is merely trying to find its way back to attatchment... with dust for example and that might explain the motivation spectres have to feed on dust filled concious peoples...

Of course that is all conjecture and has almost no basis whatsoever within the books, but it is just something interesting that I considered and am writing into a fan-fic at the moment.

Don't worry about the lapse. I would love to read your fanfic when you're done, so do tell us

I agree that maybe a Spectre would be considered to have the intelligence of some form of higher animal.

I almost wonder whether a spectre isn't the slither of "firmament" shall we say that is cut apart when a window is made... the bit that stops all the worlds spilling into eachother. It becomes lose from itself \ everything and is merely trying to find its way back to attatchment... with dust for example and that might explain the motivation spectres have to feed on dust filled concious peoples...

i'm sad to admit that i don't have a clue what you mean here

Hehe... dont worry about not understanding it, its the crazy explanation for spectres I'm reasoning within my fan-fic!

Basically I reason that every world is sealed off from every other world (until the point where Asriel blows a hole in the sky, or the knife makes a cut) to prevent the Dust that is in that world seeping out by some kind of protective layer - like a cell wall if you will. We know that when you use the knife a window is made and a spectre is formed, so I followed that idea to the conclusion that the spectre is the bit of window that is cut out (like cutting a hole in some jeans, you then have a leftover bit of fabric).

I reasoned that the spectre must have a certain kind of conciousness to be attracted to Dust and people with Dust like the animal conciousness that we have been discussing; perhaps the spectres were this impermeable layer protecting the worlds from leaking dust as we know that this is a very bad thing for conciousness, and that they were actually trying to re-capture dust to prevent it from being lost, protect dust, as it was meant to do. Yet it doesnt have high enough levels of conciousness to realise what it was doing to the human or daemon. Perhaps it was also trying to find its way back into this membrane but was unable to and so just continued on its prime function (a piece of fabric cut from jeans cannot reattach itself).

These are all conciets made for the sake of my fan fic of course - though they are somewhat plausible based on what we don't know - and I am aware that there are holes in my theories, but hey I will happily share my fan-fic when it is finished, and yes it does include a reunion between Lyra and Will. I couldn't resist!

Blake defined the Spectre as follows...

The way I see it, Spectres are the antithesis of existence. They come from the Abyss beneath the worlds, which is basically the essence of nonbeing. Following this line of thought, Spectres would feed on Dust because Dust is what happens when matter realizes that being is good, and, being in a place where nonbeing is not, they need actively to destroy being to keep themselves in nonexistence.

In this way, opening a window between worlds would create Spectres because going into another world is, symbolically, an attempt to escape from one's own world (reality, "being"). This would mean that one is striving towards something that is not of one's world, and therefore is nonbeing (get the symbolism PP uses?) This would invite a bit of nonbeing itself (the Spectre) into one's world.

As a last note, could the Spectres be called "of Indifference" because they are created when one shows an indifference toward one's world by cutting through it into another world? Creepy thoughts...

Creepy indeed...

I like your thinking Mogget, it definitely makes sense.

I agree completely with the symbolism of the spectres that you provide, I had not read that piece by Blake and that is especially interesting.

From all that reasoning that could also shed some more light on the "Why can't Will and Lyra just have one window open" debate too.

Something i've nver understood is how is a window cut, like a box?, or just a slice that you walk through, and if it is the box thing, could the spectres be the cut away fabric in the air? Sorry if this sounds stupid or anything.

What does Will mean when he says they have specters in his world too. Mental illness I thought. The kid will fights to get the knife from counts bricks in the wall when the specters attack him, much like Will's mother counts fence posts at the park.

just a thought