The Republic of Heaven

I had a look through past posts and couldn't find anything on this, so I'm just going to post it.

I'm re-reading The Subtle Knife at the moment, and I guess I'm giving it a lot of time because I'm picking up on a lot more things that I have on previous readings. One thing in particular is the scene where Will's cutting a window from Cittagazze into his own world, so that he can steal back the alethiometer. He snatches it, and is closing the window when the golden monkey realises...

"Then came a screech, not human, not animal, but worse than either, and he knew it was that loathsome monkey. By that time he'd got most of the window closed, but there was still a small gap at the level of his chest - and then he leapt back, because into that gap came a small, furry golden hand with black fingernails, and then a face: a nightmare face."

Luckily (for the monkey especially) Will closes the window before Mrs Coulter's daemon makes it through. But it just gets me thinking, what would've happened if the monkey had managed to make it through? What if, as the golden monkey crawled into Cittagazze, Will had closed the window, permanently separating Mrs Coulter from her daemon?

Would their connection be severed? Or could they co-exist in the opposite worlds, provided they were able to stay close enough together (albeit, in opposite worlds?)

I kind of imagine that they'd just be torn apart from each other, and if that is indeed the case - it was a pretty stupid thing for the monkey to do.

Thoughts?

Yeah, I imagine the same as you - that the connection would be severed.

I'm not sure if it was a completely stupid thing for the monkey to do. It probably thought that if it leapt at Will, it could knock him over before he had chance to close the window. Then the monkey could have grabbed the knife and the alethiometer and jumped back through the window again.

would they not have been killed instantly?
similar to when the guard is taken up clinging to Lee's balloon while his daemon is left below on the ground...

of course there is the possibility that Mrs Coulter and the monkey are already seperated in a similar way to Lyra and Pan at the end of TAS (depending on what you choose to believe) in which case they probably wouldn't die - Lyra and Pan managed to survive despite being in seperate worlds once seperated)

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of course there is the possibility that Mrs Coulter and the monkey are already seperated in a similar way to Lyra and Pan at the end of TAS (depending on what you choose to believe) in which case they probably wouldn't die - Lyra and Pan managed to survive despite being in seperate worlds once seperated)

I don't believe that...despite the "Coulter-Witch ability" thread, I just don't see how Mrs. Coulter could have become severed, with the limited processes available to her in her native world, and survived without becoming a Zombi.

But i do believe that, if any person could have survived having their dæmon suddenly sealed off in another world, Mrs. Coulter probably could.

This is a really intriguing idea. I had completely forgotten about this scene until it was raised here, but now I remember that something about it really bothered me.

I was thinking less of the monkey being trapped in Cittagazze and more of what would have happened if the Knife had connected with the monkey. I suppose Mrs. Coulter would have just died instantly.

The other thing that bothered me is it raises the question of the Knife being able to sever people from their daemons. It's described in TSK as being made of the same material as the silver guillotine, and it must pass at times through the connection between humans and their daemons. Why doesn't it sever people and their daemons by accident?

It's described in TSK as being made of the same material as the silver guillotine, and it must pass at times through the connection between humans and their daemons. Why doesn't it sever people and their daemons by accident?

I've thought about that a couple of times and eventually I decided that it pretty much came down to intention. Will doesn't go around accidentally opening windows for the same reason, he has to focus to do so.

There's also the fact that the knife spends most of it's time sheathed, so even if it didn't require intention, the opportunity for it to do a lot of slicing isn't really there.

That makes a lot of sense. I'd forgotten about that. He has to really concentrate to make windows, he can't just wave the knife around. I guess the substance that makes up the bond between human and daemon is as strong as that which keeps the worlds separate.

The kinfe's too small to sever people accidentally- you have to totally insulate them. Think of the link as though it's made of liquid- you can't stop it flowing unless you totally cut the flow. The knife can only block any part at one time. Also I don't think he ever holds it between a person and their daemon, so we cant be sure.

Interesting...
I always wondered about the monkey thing too, especially after reading the witch-theory thread. Maybe the monkey would have been bound to her side in the other world; since each position in each world corresponds exactly with another in anther world, they could survive and the monkey could just be beside her in the parallel position in Cittagazze. Although she would die after a few years living like that, because of the whole daemon-getting-homesick thing.
Or perhaps they would've become separated, not severed, as Lyra and Pan were after the land of the dead. Though I don't know if it would work, because technically Lyra and Pan were both in the land of the dead, but Lyra was without Pan for a while. Same with the witches: their daemon is still in their world.

About the knife severing people from daemons, I think it could be possible, but it isn't done by accident because it requires a lot of concentration (and the knife is usually sheathed).

Personally, I think that Mrs. Coulter and her daemon are already seperated (not severed, but rather seperated as Lyra and Pan are after they leave one another at the World of the Dead.) So if you subscribe to that theory as well, then Coulter and her daemon could easily be in two different worlds just as Lyra and Pan were, and as witches and their daemons can be.

But if we think about it as being just any old human/daemon pair, I'm really not sure--its a very interesting idea. Since the only way to be seperated from your daemon rather than severed is to pass through a place where daemons can't go (ie the World of the Dead or the Wasteland that the witches pass through in the North) I don't think clean seperation would be the result. It would have to be severence, then, but I wonder what the effect on the human/daemon would actually be. Remember that people don't always die when they're seperated (Tony Makarios and the nurses at Bolvangar are an example of that.) As long as they can survive the initial physical/mental shock they can go on living, albeit a half life. It also probably depends on the individual when it comes to how they are afterwards--the nurses are fully functional, but simply emotionless, whereas Tony Makarios (who's probably worse off because he's younger and weaker?) could barely function and ended up dying from weakness anyway...although that might've been because he was wandering around on the tundra for awhile...

I wonder what would happen to the daemon. Would it turn into one of the little ghost daemons like the ones at Bolvangar? I suppose its rather a good thing that Coulter couldn't use the knife since I'm sure she would have wanted to test this out immediately!

Mrs Coulter and her daemon have been cut at Bolvanger. When Lyra is with Mrs. Coulter at the house in London in the Golden Compass, the golden monkey is looking arround in her room which means that he was far away from his human. So Mrs. Coulter and her daemon would still live if the monkey crawled into Cittagazze. I think the monkey's face would have been cut with the knife and Mrs. Coulter would have felt a lot of pain. I'm not sure if it would have killed them.

I'd go with the idea that they could separate due to practise rather than having undergone the Bolvanger separation. The latter seems to turn people and their demons docile, which could never be said about Coulter, or the monkey. I could just see her and the monkey practising separation like some love ritual.

To answer the op's question, very good question.

I think that someone that had undergone what Lyra went thru, or what witches went thru, cudda survived, but not for long. The longer they'da gone without their daemons their health had to have deteriorated. Anyone else prolly died, the shock to the system too great.

Now as to Ronni's question, Wow, awesome question. I think that like Ultracommando said, the Dust flows around, so that the link would hafta be trapped, or insulated, for the knife to sever the daemon/human link. But I think it could have, if properly focused, and the Dust unable to flow around it. Iorek sure didn't like the thing, and I like what he said about the 'intentions' of the knife.


Good thread. Good queries.