The Republic of Heaven

When Lyra and Will first went to Cittagazze, circumstances implied there was an exceptional amount of Spectres around. Did they all come from Asriel's hole? Wouldn't the hole just release one Spectre, regardless of size?

I got the impression that things like Windows kept 'leaking' out the dust, which created the spectres. So the longer a window (or the....rip in the worlds) was kept open, the more...spectres leaked in?

Which still doesn't make sense, because some windows have been open for centuries and clearly haven't spawned millions of Spectres, otherwise the Cittagazzeans would be extinct long before Will arrived. Not that they were going too well anyway...

The subtle knife was only about for a couple of centuries, silly

And as Citagazze was the place it seemed to be kept (at least in the history of that guy in the tower...I forget his name), the most windows were carelessly left open around Citagazze...

Dunc says:
[12:27] <Dunc> each time it is used it creates a spectre
[12:27] <Dunc> so just how many could you create in 300 years

But what I'm trying to say is that there seemed to be a sudden, massive influx of Spectres. When the witches rescued Will and Lyra, there were thousands, the ground was thick with them. No civillisation could survive an amount like that. And going by the amount of Specters and windows, they must've been spawning quite quickly, even over 300 years.

I still think one window creates one Spectre. Didn't Xaphania even confirm that?

EDIT: Fine, *now* you post Dunc's argument...

And ill add to that, The world of Cittegaze pullman describes as a 'crossroad' world. Angels use it to move between worlds, so there must be a considerable amount of holes elsewhere which have been naturally created.


I suppose they go where the food is, wouldn't you?

Alright, now I'm confused. What are we arguing and who's on who's side?

If you remember when Will is talking to the Angel, she says that since the knife was made in Cittagazze, basically all the windows were connected there. Thus most of the spectres (specters) were in Cittagazze because every time he opened a window a new spectre was created. It might also be that the spectres were drawn to Cittagazze because of the knife.

Mrs. Coulter seemed to be able to control the spectres, why wouldn't the church be able to bend them to their will?

I think it was definitely because of the hole. If the knife makes a hole there is only one spectre no matter the size, but that hole wasn't made by the knife and it was enormous, thus the many many spectres.

mod edit: Having a whole pie means you have an entire pie. Having a hole in your pie means something very different indeed.

The spectre problem became worse...but there already was a problem.

I'd say one spectre per cut. Perhaps the spectres can wonder between worlds any way the like, and they liked the action going on. Or Asriel didnt have just one hole. Perhaps he has multiple holes for his pleasure. Like when you hold a lighter under a piece of plastic. A couple of small holes appear at first, and sort of melt together. Perhaps Asriel's one hole started out as hundreds. Or some of the spectres were also being easy passage to this crossworld. I don't know. Though I do believe 1 hole = 1 spectre.

There were so many spectrs because usage of the knife creates a spectre each time you open a portal (although the spectres only appear to show up in Citagazze no matter where you use the knife).

Perhaps Asriel let more in with his method, or they all sensed him (As he's an adult) and came in for the kill. It's never said hwo he got out.

1 cut=1 specter, providing its normal size. However Asriel created a hell of a big hole and hundreds where created. There where probably a couple of thousand in Cittagazze anyways, but Asriels cut meant that hundreds, perhapse more poured in there-it was already majorly infested asit was the crossroad and was where the knife was created.

Asriels hole was diffrent though.. it was like the Atom Bomb of subtle knives..

Knives kill one person when you use them, Bombs kill lots

But that's just my opinion... i think...

Electricity was still running and food hadn't completely decomposed, so the disappearance of adults was sudden, which would be consistent with Asriel's hole creating a cataclysmic event which required everyone to evacuate. However, it seems surprising that the entire town decided and was able to evacuate in the time it took for Lyra to travel from the newly-formed hole to the town without seeing any people or spectre-consumed bodies left behind. It doesn't really make sense.

Electricity was still running and food hadn't completely decomposed, so the disappearance of adults was sudden, which would be consistent with Asriel's hole creating a cataclysmic event which required everyone to evacuate. However, it seems surprising that the entire town decided and was able to evacuate in the time it took for Lyra to travel from the newly-formed hole to the town without seeing any people or spectre-consumed bodies left behind. It doesn't really make sense.

Dosn't it say they all fled? (I think it was one of the lads Lyra/Will met on the beach?)

Electricity was still running and food hadn't completely decomposed, so the disappearance of adults was sudden, which would be consistent with Asriel's hole creating a cataclysmic event which required everyone to evacuate. However, it seems surprising that the entire town decided and was able to evacuate in the time it took for Lyra to travel from the newly-formed hole to the town without seeing any people or spectre-consumed bodies left behind. It doesn't really make sense.

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Lyra wandered around in the fog for a couple of days, that's enough time for an evacuation. Although I don't know why there weren't any bodies left behind, perhaps the children err... disposed of them.

And doesn't it say somewhere that in recent days, the number of Spectres has increased beyond anything the Cittagazze people can handle? Remember Serafina and co meet a couple of adults whose job it is to flee Spectre attacks on horseback to ensure the survival of the people (in TSK). They had methods for coping with attacks from the small number of Spectres present before Asriel blasted open all the worlds. (That's why they're not extinct)

That's just reminded me. He didn't just cut between L-world and one other place. He blasted through ALL the worlds, didn't he? Wouldn't that mean multiple windows and thus multiple Spectres?

I think Specters can only exist in the Citagazze world. It's been postulated that our version of Specters is mental illness, and there could be a different version for every world. However, we know Asriel didn't rip through our world since the poles there are still fine - I think he did only rip to Citagazze, which is the city in the sky that he saw.

You are absolutely right. I am in Sydney and have my trusty copy of TSK in my hands, and it was only between L-world and Cittagazze. I thought all the stuff about global warming was because Asriel had blasted open the boundaries between ALL the worlds, but then realised that would mean global warming had only begun in the 90s. Global warming in our world was caused because of unclosed windows, so I apologise. I really shouldn't make wild claims when I don't have my books with me to check things.