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The Knife - Why?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:57 am
by Starshade
Why would the scientists of Cittagazze want to create a knife?
What is the logical explanation that they would want to?
What was they trying to create in the first place?
When they cut the smallest thing and created the Spectres, do you think that this was in some way related to the string theory?
Finally, Why is there a knife-bearer?
Re: The Knife - Why?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:13 am
by Enitharmon
Psy-Tychist wrote:Why would the scientists of Cittagazze want to create a knife?
To investigate the structure of the universe. Because it's there. The knife is a metaphysical concept, of course, like Occam's Razor and Schrödinger's Cat. If you were making a real device for fine work like cutting between atoms you wouldn't make something crude and clumsy as a boy scout knife, would you?
What is the logical explanation that they would want to?
Because it makes a stonking good storyline for a twelve-year-old boy three hundred years later. Pursuing scientific justification too far really isn't very helpful!
What was they trying to create in the first place?
A stonking good story. See above.
When they cut the smallest thing and created the Spectres, do you think that this was in some way related to the string theory?
Possibly, but I wouldn't let it worry you. Just suspend your disbelief, don't try to grapple with quantum mechanics and enjoy the stonking good story!
Finally, Why is there a knife-bearer?
It gives Will something to do.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:38 am
by Starshade
So, your telling me, that its just part of a stonking good story?
I'll accept that, but I still wonder why they would want to anyway.
Don't worry bout the Quantum Mechanics frying my brain, I actually understand the theory.
What other from would the scientists have used?
Re: The Knife - Why?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:59 am
by dumbledad
Psy-Tychist wrote:Why would the scientists of Cittagazze want to create a knife?
What is the logical explanation that they would want to?
What was they trying to create in the first place?
Isn't there a quote in the book that tells us this - when Lord Boreal is presenting to the court. Sadly I don't have my books with me, if I get time after mowing the grass this evening I'll look it up.
Enitharmon wrote:Possibly, but I wouldn't let it worry you. Just suspend your disbelief, don't try to grapple with quantum mechanics and enjoy the stonking good story!
Here here. I don't really get the enjoyment in learning one's physics from a fantasy novel written by an ex-English teacher.
Psy-Tychist wrote:Finally, Why is there a knife-bearer?
This is interesting. I cannot think of any example of this in the real world. Whenever we have made a discovery that brings the user power, it is quickly reduced from science to engineering and either sold openly, or kept by the military. In neither case does it remain as a single physical instance. There are articles of power with only one physical instance, like the black rod used to knock on the door during the Queen's opening of parliament, but these objects only have power because we choose to vest it. We could equally well choose to ignore it. So the only analogy I can think of is secret knowledge, or Gnosticism. There are examples where knowledge is passed from one onto one (or at least from few onto few), like the coronation of emperors in Japan. Whenever I think about Gnoticism I recall the following perplexing quote from Jesus. It's in Matthew 13, verse 13, and is Jesus answering his disciples who asked why he taught in parables, rather than more directly.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:48 am
by Melancholy Man
Smug git wrote:Don't worry bout the Quantum Mechanics frying my brain, I actually understand the theory.
<Looses interest in Qu>
<Vigorously slaps Psy-Tychist>
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:06 pm
by Qu Klaani
The slapper wrote:<Looses interest in Qu>
Thank Zeus
*crawls away with extremely red cheeks*
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:38 pm
by Tomsy
The Eye wrote:
Thank Zeus
That's Jupiter!
JUPITER! Heretic! May Cerberus rip your scaly behind to pieces!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:22 pm
by Jameson
Qu Klaani wrote:
*crawls away with extremely red cheeks*
Would that be arse cheeks or face cheeks? Because you know, I've always enjoyed a bit of a slap n' tickle...
hrsgjdfykdg
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:42 pm
by The Unsettled One
Quote: Why would the scientists of Cittagazze want to create a knife?
What is the logical explanation that they would want to?
What was they trying to create in the first place?
When they cut the smallest thing and created the Spectres, do you think that this was in some way related to the string theory?
Finally, Why is there a knife-bearer?
Thinking laterally,
1. The scientists of Cittagazze would want to create a knife to.... that's right, cut things.
2.The logical explanation is answered above.
3. They were trying to create a knife.
4. I have no idea what the string theory is, i'm only young.
5. There is a knife-bearer to bear the knife.
ps. i didn't mean to offend anyones intelligence in saying these things.
i'm a bit of a retard myself.
Re: hrsgjdfykdg
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 10:36 pm
by Tomsy
Æsahættr2 wrote:I have no idea what the string theory is, i'm only young.
http://superstringtheory.com/there you go mate.
Age is an illusion, created by our perception of time. People are never satisfied with their age. They're either too young, too old or 14 years, 7 months and 7 days.
Re: hrsgjdfykdg
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:19 pm
by Jameson
abc wrote: People are never satisfied with their age. They're either too young, too old or 14 years, 7 months and 7 days.
Is that your age?
I thought you were older. Please unconfuse me, my dear
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:22 pm
by Tomsy
Indeed, my age that is.
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 5:04 am
by All_That_Jazz
Hey, here's an idea: maybe the knife is an extended metaphor for the church in Lyra's world...While the scientists in Cittagazze released the spectres, the church grew too power hungry, creating suffering and persecution. (This may or may not make sense, depending on how awake I actually am, and someone might have already discussed this theory...)
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 8:57 am
by The Unsettled One
you know that's the best answer yet
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 9:46 am
by Tomsy
Mmmmmm I thought it was meant to be more like the physicists in our world in the early 1900s (Einstein in particular) discovering the atom bomb.
There was a funny quote from the TV show Hawking: "Blaming the atom bomb on Einstein is like blaming Newton for plane crashes because he discovered gravity."
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 9:59 am
by Enitharmon
All_That_Jazz wrote:Hey, here's an idea: maybe the knife is an extended metaphor for the church in Lyra's world...
Well, you're close. The knife
is a metaphor - a metaphysical construct as I put it anyway, but it's not the church in the L-World, it's a metaphor for irresponsible science in our own world. There's quite a lot of references to that, actually, and it's something that PP feels strongly about. It's investigating into, say, genetic engineering without considering the possible consequences.
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 11:56 am
by eloquent
abc wrote:Mmmmmm I thought it was meant to be more like the physicists in our world in the early 1900s (Einstein in particular) discovering the atom bomb.
There was a funny quote from the TV show Hawking: "Blaming the atom bomb on Einstein is like blaming Newton for plane crashes because he discovered gravity."
Wooo... somebody remembers that old thread of mine.
Or came to the same conclusion independently.eloquent, ages ago wrote:While re-reading TSK, I noticed something interesting. One of the Ci'gazze children Lyra meets has a theory about where the spectres came from that he was told by his Father. It does not correspond with the accepted fact that they were made by the knife, so is not necessarily true. However I do think it has a purpose. This is the quote:
"This is what happened, all right: this Guild man hundreds of years ago was taking some metal apart. Lead. He was going to make it into gold. And he cut it and cut it smaller and smaller till he came to the smallest piece he could get. There ain nothing smaller than that. So small you couldn't see it, even. But he cut that too, and inside the smallest little bit, there was all the Spectres packed in twisted over and folded over and folded up so tight they took up no space at all. But once he cut it, bam! They wooshed out, and they been here ever since."
I'm no expert in the field, so correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds to me very much like nuclear physics. As far as I understand, when a nuclear bomb is detonated, the plutonium atoms are made to become unstable, and the relitively huge force holding their constituent sub-atomic particles together collapses. At this point they all shoot outwards with a phenominal energy that triggers the apocaliptic effects of a nuclear explosion.
Could PP be saying that all nuclear weapons do is release evil into the world, that splitting the atom is like opening a Pandora's box? That is certainly the impression that I get. In addition, alchemy (attempts to make gold) has always symbolised greed. PP is a member of the cold war generation, who were all very anti bomb, so it would make sense if he metaphorically included this in his work.
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 2:44 pm
by Tomsy
You and I are kindred spirits, eloquent. That was my own idea, though I may have been subconciously influenced by you.
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 8:33 pm
by Daniel
Enitharmon wrote:All_That_Jazz wrote:Hey, here's an idea: maybe the knife is an extended metaphor for the church in Lyra's world...
Well, you're close. The knife
is a metaphor - a metaphysical construct as I put it anyway, but it's not the church in the L-World, it's a metaphor for irresponsible science in our own world. There's quite a lot of references to that, actually, and it's something that PP feels strongly about. It's investigating into, say, genetic engineering without considering the possible consequences.
I wouldn't say that
investigating is the problem. Your comparison to genetic engineering holds, but the companies that make GM products aren't concerned with investigation in the least. They just want to make money and be the first in the field; they don't really care whether what they're doing is safe. When scientists want to make money, they tend to start [i]using[/u] new technology without considering its consequences.
If the Guild had created the knife for research purposes and destroyed it as soon as they figured out what it did, they would have been fine. Instead, they just used it to take things from other worlds for their own profit. The problem only started when they moved from an investigative stage to a "profit!" stage.
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2004 8:38 pm
by Melancholy Man
Daniel wrote:I wouldn't say that investigating is the problem. Your comparison to genetic engineering holds, but the companies that make GM products aren't concerned with investigation in the least.
I would be more inclined to believe in the benefits of GM technology were it not for the with-holding on HAART schemes for HIV patients in the developing world. Or, the ineptitude bordering on malfeasence during it's appearence.