The Republic of Heaven

What kind of effect do you think daemons would have on discrimination? Would the holocaust have had happened if Hitler had realised that the Germans and the Jews both had that lifelong love for their daemons, and the Jews were not absolutely evil? Or would there be /more/ discrimination, for example for daemon forms, or daemon gender?

I'd say, just as a first opinion, that the more varieties there are in people, the more they would be discriminated against. I mean, gays and lesbians are discriminated against in our world, how much worse would it be if you couldn't hide that you were gay?
On the other hand, Pullman doesn't touch on it and I think it would be a very interesting issue to find out more about.

I'd say, just as a first opinion, that the more varieties there are in people, the more they would be discriminated against. I mean, gays and lesbians are discriminated against in our world, how much worse would it be if you couldn't hide that you were gay?
On the other hand, Pullman doesn't touch on it and I think it would be a very interesting issue to find out more about.

Same-sex daemons don't mean you're gay. There'd be far more of them if it did. My daemon is most definitely male.

I don't think it would've changed Hitler's, or anyone else's attitude for that matter, towards the Jewish people. I don't think it would change discrimination for the better at all, perhaps for the worst, especially with fascism. Fascism favoured physical strength over intellect - people with weak daemons might have been looked down on by the people with strong daemons. The snake VS the mouse, for example.

I don't really see where Hitler would've seen that Jews aren't evil from their daemons though. If someone can't see that I'm a human being just like them without a daemon, then I don't see why having one would change that. We're used to not having daemons, if we were used to it it would have no effect on our perspectives of other people because... well, we'd be used to it.

daemons didn't make the gits at Bolvangar anymore empathetic to the children, did they?

Admittedly, half of them were zombies anyway, and the rest were church people and church people in HDM are quite one-sided.
I'm not saying all homosexuals have same-sex daemons, I'm saying that some do - actually yeah, they don't have to be homosexuals either. The point is people with same-sex daemons, homosexual or not, would probably be discriminated against. Although you probably know better, Soaps.

I agree that people with same sex daemons would be discriminated against, but only because they're the minority. I don't think it has anything to do with homosexuality, in fact it could mean something different entirely. Here's what Pullman had to say about it in an interview:

daemons are usually the opposite sex because we each have a bit of the opposite in our make-up, and it was one way of making that visible.

I assume that would mean someone with a same sex daemon does not "have a bit of the opposite" sex in their make-up. I don't know how this would affect sexuality, but it doesn't necessarily mean they'd be gay.

But I do agree with Sophie; people with "weak" daemons would probably be discriminated against. Admittedly, it doesn't seem like a huge problem in Lyra's world, but I think it would be inevitable in our world...

I don't think it would've changed Hitler's, or anyone else's attitude for that matter, towards the Jewish people. I don't think it would change discrimination for the better at all, perhaps for the worst, especially with fascism. Fascism favoured physical strength over intellect - people with weak daemons might have been looked down on by the people with strong daemons. The snake VS the mouse, for example.

I agree.
Hilter would have stil made the choice as I think Lyra would have chosen to go to cittagaze if she didn't have Pan.
daemons are us. They just help us understand a situation more clearly.

This is what I think

pullman never explicitly defined what same-sex daemons implied, except that it was rare and perhaps the humans were a bit strange (or perceived so at least, but that makes sense if it's rare). it seems to have to do something more with gender rather than sexual orientation and gender can be culture-specific, fluid, etc... so maybe it's something like that.


i'm not sure that daemons would influence racial discrimination (there's no direct allusions to this in HDM actually (though it probably exists), rather wonder at seeing peoples from distant lands) but maybe something more like class discrimination, under the assumption that because one's daemon settled with a certain form, they must act according to the attributes given for it. e.g. dog-settled daemons.

i don't get the idea that daemons are at all defined by ethnicity, though tartars were represented by wolves (i think), but something like that could just represent a certain portion of the population (warriors?). witches tended towards bird daemons, but that did not define.. say, laplanders or scandinavians.

i wonder if the idea that daemons implied humanity, as mentionned by sophie, and as exemplified perhaps by iofur's desire for a daemon, changed the discourse of discrimination. in our world, dehumanisation of the other/enemy/etc. seems to be prevalent in conflicts, e.g. the pacific theatre of world war II on both the american and japanese sides. dehumanisation is a strategy that has worked well for justifying discrimination, and it seems you can't really do that in a world where your humanity-defining souls are explicitly visible.

I agree with all that has been said so far. I know someone who has a unicorn daemon, and people would be such a bully to him if daemons were corporeal. =/

On the other hand, corporeal daemons could help in brawls. Unless it's some other form like.. a salamander. >>;

just a thought that occured to me: i suspect that the equivalent (although that's not really the right word) of same-sex daemons in our world would be something similar (in rarity) to people who are, say, ambidextrous

...?

just a thought that occured to me: i suspect that the equivalent (although that's not really the right word) of same-sex daemons in our world would be something similar (in rarity) to people who are, say, ambidextrous

...?

Being ambidextrous is a physical thing. Your daemon's form is a mental thing.

But I see what you mean by that.

And actually i'd say it was the other way around - same-sex daemons could mean you've got no traits from the opposite sex at all. So more like an extremely left handed person

oh yeah, i agree wiht what you're saying

i think prehaps i didn't explain very well:
i meant that a same-sex daemon probably occured with the same frequency in Lyra's world as something like ambidextrism (is that a word?) in our world...
(of course ambidextrism (?!?) is something that can be learned however)

and i realise that this is getting terribly off topic but you may be interested to know that Wikipedia claims most polar-bears are left handed
(sorry, had to throw that in)

But being ambidextrous isn't something that is immediately visibly apparent, like a daemon. People in Lyra's world could/would stereotype by daemons and daemons being same-sex may indicate a certain stereotype, or they may just be in the minority. If they are in the minority, I think it's likely that they may be discriminated against simply for being different, because that's how humans tend to work.

All that aklebury (correct me if I'm wrong, acklebury) is saying is that roughly the same amount of people who are ambidextrous in our world might have same sex daemons in Lyra's world. As far as I can tell, there is no other correlation other than frequency.

yeah that's it exactly!

i'm glad someone understood my ramblings

I agree with jessia; I think daemons would probably help to fuel class discrimination. Imagine all the servants with dog-daemons; even when they're not working, their status is immediately obvious. Being born in a working class environment compared to an upper class environment would affect a child's upbringing very much, and when their daemon becomes fixed, that's bound to influence their form. So there might be less social mobility in L-world.

With some effort, you could change your accent and appearance, but not your daemon. It would always give your background away.

For some reasons I think that daemons are not influence by your social background... I mean, there are part of your ideas or personality that are influenced by you social backrgound but your soul isn't imo and daemons, in HDM, are souls. But I certainly think having a dog daemon would be a big problem for a child raised in upper-class, he might be rejected by his own family...

Agreed, i don't think people having daemons would have stopped people like Hitler.
I do think people would be discriminated based on what form their daemons settled. You probably couldn't help looking down on someone with a crap daemon.

Of course, there would probably be a lot more discrimination. Probably the worst kind of discrimination, and only saved for very special occasions.

After all, you are insulting someone's SOUL!! Not like an appearance which doesn't really mean anything, but their SOUL, who they are..

That would make one kinda sad.