The Republic of Heaven

I was re-reading Northern Lights just a week ago and suddenly noticed the amount of people with snake daemons. While everyone else gets away with an original daemon, at least three people have snake daemons. The ones I have spotted are:
1) Doctor Lanselius
2) Lord Boreal
3) The mad professor locked up by Iofur Raknison
I think there's a fourth but I've forgotten him.
In any case, does this have anything to do with Mary Malone as a snake or the Adam and Eve myth, or is it just coincidence?

I don't know, what about all the people with dog daemons? And all the people with wolf daemons?

They may all have snake daemons, but they're quite likely to be different species of snake. *shrugs* So maybe there isn't really much in it.

If there is, I can't think what it would be. Do all these characters have something in common? Some kind of significance?

I don't know, what about all the people with dog dæmons? And all the people with wolf dæmons?

They may all have snake dæmons, but they're quite likely to be different species of snake. *shrugs* So maybe there isn't really much in it.

If there is, I can't think what it would be. Do all these characters have something in common? Some kind of significance?

The only multiples of dog and wolf daemons in the trilogy are servants and a specific Tartar legion, so both groups. There doesn't seem to be anything linking the snake people, which is why I'm intrigued.

Right - it says right at the beginning of TGC that servants usually have dog daemons, and it would make sense that low-ranking warriors would have either dog or wolf daemons as well. The daemon does usually reflect the basic nature of the person. Lyra's pine marten is in the weasel family, and reflects her quickness and adaptablility. Asriel's snow leopard and Marisa's monkey display their characters as well. Which makes me wonder, again, if the daemon represents the soul or the ego.

As for Mary Malone - I wonder what her daemon would be? Snake symbolism has many meanings in mythology. In Christianity it usually represents demons and evil nature. But in Chinese, and Native American lore the snake has admirable qualities and represents beneficial deities.

I notice other reptiles mentioned as daemons - and for the most part, it appears that the HDM characters who have such daemons are untrustworthy.

As for Mary Malone - I wonder what her dæmon would be?

Her daemon is an alpine chough.

And yes, I get what you mean about certain groups of people with dog daemons and wolf daemons. There doesn't seem to be a connection between the people with snake daemons though.

Just looked that up - a member of the crow family, black, with yellow legs and bill. Crows are very intelligent and fierce creatures, so that fits.

I was re-reading Northern Lights just a week ago and suddenly noticed the amount of people with snake dæmons. While everyone else gets away with an original dæmon, at least three people have snake dæmons. The ones I have spotted are:
1) Doctor Lanselius
2) Lord Boreal
3) The mad professor locked up by Iofur Raknison
I think there's a fourth but I've forgotten him.
In any case, does this have anything to do with Mary Malone as a snake or the Adam and Eve myth, or is it just coincidence?

There are several different varieties of snakes. You might as well lump all feline daemons together and say that there's an unusual frequency of cats.

Sorry, Ralphie.

Theres an unusual frequency of people in HDM.

There are several different varieties of snakes. You might as well lump all feline dæmons together and say that there's an unusual frequency of cats.

There is an unusual frequency of cats . And anyway, there are wildcats, leopards etc but when PP says 'snake' he never specifies viper or boa, I'm assuming the snakes are all of a common variety like a garden snake.

I think a snake daemon implies a very specific kind of intelligence, an almost subtle, sharp kind.

For Lord Boreal and Professor Santelius, I think it's just a quick way to denote that they're a bit slippery. The snake is an easy 'oh he must be evil!' animal.

Here's a snake from http://www.~*SITE REMOVED*~.com/
Shy and insecure, they must keep a low profile to avoid the disapproving glances and teasing of others. Of course, their poisonous wit and quick tongues help to keep tormentors at bay.

Lanselius and Boreal's daemons are in fact both emerald green serpents, which is kind of strange. Lanselius's is explicitly described as "little" while Boreal's is not, so they're not exactly the same, but that's still quite a bit more similarity than their personalities would seem to suggest. The only real commonality I can think of is that they're both good at unobtrusively extracting information from people. General craftiness and slyness is much broader than just snakes, although certainly they seem to be traits that people with snake daemons have.

Santelius is described too briefly for me to make anything of (and he's also in the dark at the time). I think the intention there might have just been to make him seem creepier--discovering that you're sharing the cell with a crazy guy and his opossum daemon just doesn't have the same effect as a snake.

The way canine daemons tend to be found in certain groups is really the exception rather than the rule, I think. People with dog daemons (to overgeneralize slightly) consider being in a stable, well-ordered social hierarchy very important. This makes being a servant or a soldier in a well-organized regiment attractive jobs for them. There are lots of people in the books with cat daemons, too, but no specific groups are characterized specifically by cat daemons because there's no social force that would lead to such groups being created. (In fact, being in any type of tightly-constrained social structure is probably not something most people with cat daemons like.)

LOL about the cats! When you have several of them, they can become good friends, and groom each other and sleep side by side. But there is not the kind of pack behavior which dogs have. The same goes with their relationship with humans. You never really own a cat. It allows you to live with it. And if you abuse it, it will simply move on, and not look back.

The two green snakes are interesting. The little one would probably be a common grass snake, reclusive and well camouflaged in its natural habitat. The kind of snake a paranoid person like Lanselius might have.

I don't believe there is any such thing as a Boreal's larger green serpent in the wild, unless there is such a critter on Lyra's world. Which makes me wonder if it is a mythological creature - are there any among the daemons?

That was discussed some time ago, with the general consensus that insane or mentally disturbed people may have mythological or just bizzare daemons - I think, correct me if I'm wrong, sraffies.

That was discussed some time ago, with the general consensus that insane or mentally disturbed people may have mythological or just bizzare dæmons - I think, correct me if I'm wrong, sraffies.

That's a cool theory, before my time though. Did you decide that the mental illness was genetic and manifested before the daemons settled, or why would the daemons be bizarre?

As far as mythological creatures go, Pan turned into a mini dragon once, but I don't think there were any settled mythical daemons.

When Lyra was exploring the crypt, one of the plaques to the deceased Masters had a basilisk daemon on it.

My copy includes the "fair woman" daemon, which (I remember reading) was taken out in later editions. Did they remove the basilisk as well?

That was discussed some time ago, with the general consensus that insane or mentally disturbed people may have mythological or just bizzare dæmons - I think, correct me if I'm wrong, sraffies.

Really? Don't remember that. So does that mean someone with, say, a phoenix daemon has to be insane? Sounds pretty dubious to me, although I would say someone with that type of daemon would be a very unique individual.

What if they aren't mythological creatures in Lyra's world, but real ones? The stories in our world about such creatures may have just been sightings of them after the poor confused animals wandered through a window and couldn't get back again....

Um..or not

It's a good logical theory, but I think it's too fancy for Pullman's world. Good kick-off point for a fanfic though. Peter, you know you want to.

It's a good logical theory, but I think it's too fancy for Pullman's world. Good kick-off point for a fanfic though. Peter, you know you want to.

You finish The Clockmaker's Girl first; and then ask me about peculiar daemons