The Republic of Heaven

I was reading through Northern Lights earlier trying to find a few passages, and I came across something I found interesting that I hadn't noticed before.

As for what experimental theology was, Lyra had no more idea than the urchins. She had formed the notion that it was concerned with magic, with the movements of stars and planets, but that was guesswork, really. Probably the stars had daemons just as humans did, and experimental theology involved talking to them. Lyra imagined the Chaplain speaking loftily, listening to the star-daemons' remarks, and then nodding judiciously or shaking his head in regret. But what might be passing between them, she couldn't conceive. - Page 35 (in the black-covered hardback 3-in-1 book), Chapter 3 Lyra's Jordan

It makes me wonder whether Lyra actually fully understood the nature daemons, and therefore other people in L-world might not understand it either. You'd expect Lyra to know if others did, as it's the kind of thing you'd expect to just be inherently known due to the fact that daemons are such an important factor in L-world.

Or maybe it's just that the nature of stars is not understood, which would also surprise me, as I kinda thought that the level of technology in L-world, while not high, would at least have progressed to telescopes or something of the sort if something as complex as the alethiometer was able to be made.

Meh, I don't know. I just found it interesting really, like I said. Discuss it at your leisure

I don't remember that part at all. I really wish I had my book with me right now...

Reading that I got the feeling she was just using something she knew very well (daemons) to take a chance and explain something she doesn't know at all. Seems like a pretty common thing for a child to do in any world. If I were in a more creative mood I would think of an example, but my brain is fried from studying.

I think it's more likely the second point you touched on - that the nature of stars isn't fully understood. I'm sure the scholars at Jordan know, but they probably can't talk about it too much. The Church is in control remember; they'd still be holding that the earth is flat and orbitted by the stars. Meanwhile those who have to do the real work quietly get on with using the correct facts in their calculations.

Plus, Lyra is ignorant too.

Besides, their times are quite far behind our own and theological questions like those never revolve themselves.We aren't meant to understand everything.

I think it would be the nature of stars was not understood by Lyra. How many 11-year-olds who aren't science geeks actually know what a star is?

As for daemons, yeah, I think knowing about your daemon would be instinct, like knowing where up and down are.

Yeah it's hard to say you have to fill a lot in between the lines. I think it's funny that the buildings in Citagazze, if I remember correctly, are made of stone, or at least the ones around the tower. I can't remember right off but as far along as they are and they've created a knife that travels between worlds? Wow.

It makes me wonder whether Lyra actually fully understood the nature daemons, and therefore other people in L-world might not understand it either. You'd expect Lyra to know if others did, as it's the kind of thing you'd expect to just be inherently known due to the fact that daemons are such an important factor in L-world.

I'd imagine that daemons would just be taken for granted, and not thought about very much, except perhaps by philosophers. They, after all, cannot conceive of a world without external daemons.

And Lyra, after all, is only eleven...

I think that as daemons would obviously be a huge part of the people of Lyra's world anyway, that children just assumed that everything that wasn't on earth had daemons, including stars. Maybe? I dunno..

I think it would be the nature of stars was not understood by Lyra. How many 11-year-olds who aren't science geeks actually know what a star is?

*Proudly places self in science geek category* I was very much into astronomy then and still am now, though not as much. I also knew my WIMPs from my MACHOs as an early teen!

Anyway... I'd have to agree that Lyra didn't really know what the stars were then (her education by the Jordan scholars was very sporadic and she usually skipped many of her classes after the first few sessions according to TGC.) and was just imagining how things might be.

~Lady Greenie~

As for what experimental theology was, Lyra had no more idea than the urchins. She had formed the notion that it was concerned with magic, with the movements of stars and planets, but that was guesswork, really. Probably the stars had daemons just as humans did, and experimental theology involved talking to them. Lyra imagined the Chaplain speaking loftily, listening to the star-daemons' remarks, and then nodding judiciously or shaking his head in regret. But what might be passing between them, she couldn't conceive. - Page 35 (in the black-covered hardback 3-in-1 book), Chapter 3 Lyra's Jordan

The answer is probably in how you interpret that paragraph. It seemed to me that the sentence about stars and daemons was just another part of Lyra's interpretation of experimental theology. Like Will pointed out, Lyra was ignorant and definately would not have thought long on this subject anyway, it simply wouldn't have held her attention long enough.

Another way to look at it is that the people in L-world might consider the stars to be alive and conscious, and thus we would be able to communicate with them (this would be unlikely considering the church's doctrines). But if it is true and they do believe this, then it would be the natural conclusion for them that the stars did have daemons as they can't imagine conscious life without a daemon, judging from Lyra's reaction to Will's lack of daemon in TSK.

As for what experimental theology was, Lyra had no more idea than the urchins. She had formed the notion that it was concerned with magic, with the movements of stars and planets, but that was guesswork, really. Probably the stars had dæmons just as humans did, and experimental theology involved talking to them. Lyra imagined the Chaplain speaking loftily, listening to the star-dæmons' remarks, and then nodding judiciously or shaking his head in regret. But what might be passing between them, she couldn't conceive. - Page 35 (in the black-covered hardback 3-in-1 book), Chapter 3 Lyra's Jordan

(emphasis edited)

Lyra has no idea about these things, so it's her guess that perhaps the stars have dæmons and that experimental theology involved speaking to them. However, she doesn't have a clue and is probably just making things up as she goes, in typical Lyra fashion.

However, I still don't think the people in her universe understood dæmons fullly. (see: the experiments at Bolvangar.) I think that, given time, they would have developed the science and dropped some of the religion in order to fully understand dæmons, but that was interrupted when Asriel burst open the gate to another world.

Well, Experimental Theologians in our world don't understand the brain fully.