The Republic of Heaven

Forgive me if this has been discussed or debated before, but none of the other topics on the first few pages seemed to touch on this.

Are daemons of the same mental and physical age as their humans, are they at a different mental and physical age, or do all daemons have approximately the same mental or physical age as one another, unrelated to what level their human is at?

To clarify: When Lyra is 11, is Pan as mature and intellectual as Lyra is, and do the shapes he takes on represent what that particular animal would look like at the age of 11 in (insert animal here) years?

This has been something I've wondered about since I first cracked open The Golden Compass years and years ago. For whatever reason, I've always imagined Pan's voice to be that of an adult, and I do read him as being a sight more mature and pensive than Lyra. When I see him take shapes in my mind's eye, he's an adult version of that particular species, with one exception.

Page 132 of The Golden Compass, Ma Costa is explaining the true course of events on the evening Lord Asriel killed Mrs. Coulter’s husband. “Then he says cool as paint, ‘Come out, Mrs. Costa, and bring the baby,’ because you were setting up such a howl, you and that daemon both…” That passage is really what made me question my view of daemons always being ‘adult’. For me, it conjures images of Pantalaimon as a yowling kitten, newly born and just as helpless and intellectually undeveloped as the infant Lyra.

Of course, an animal of any age can cry out and yelp, and Pantalaimon would be feeling the same distress Lyra was feeling whether he was a year old in mental age or twenty. However, I somehow can’t see a Pan capable of higher thought not being so active in comforting Lyra and soothing her worries. Pan does, after all, suppress his own feelings of being betrayed and hurt beyond measure when Lyra leaves him on the shores of the suburbs of the dead, in order to prevent her from feeling worse: “And he knew that if he spoke, she wouldn’t be able to resist; so the daemon held himself quiet so as not to distress the human who was abandoning him…” (TAS, 284)

As for physical age, part of the answer may lie in the description of Sophonax, Farder Coram’s daemon. Whether it’s common that the appearance of a daemon doesn’t age with the appearance of its human or not, it is clear that Sophonax is not as aged or decrepit as Farder Coram. Page 142 of The Golden Compass has the excerpt “Sophonax was as sleek and healthy and beautiful as Farder Coram was ravaged and weak.”

I don’t know if I presented the question or my ideas as clearly as I would have liked, but what do you believe about the mental and physical age of daemons? If children’s daemons can take any forms, would that mean that the ability to take the form of a puppy as opposed to a full-grown dog, a kitten as opposed to a full-grown cat, or is there just a cat-shape and a dog-shape, of some arbitrary age in physical maturity? Do daemons develop and mature faster than their humans? Can they walk first or talk first? Are they ‘born’ able to do everything they’re ever able to do?

What a wonderful post!

I think there is no true answer, daemons are as varied as humans are. However I do think that as your 'wisdom', if you will, they mature much faster than their humans, so a girl at age 11 would have a daemon much wiser and more adult than she is, however when you are as wise as Farder Coram, your daemon would be equal to you.
I noticed that both Salamakia and the golden monkey seemed to be wiser than Lord Asriel and Mrs Coutler.

Thanks for your reply!

I like the view of them developing and obtaining wisdom faster than their humans. It follows with daemons being a conscience and an advisor as well as a companion, playmate, and soul. I believe in TAS during a time when they're separated, I remember it once being stated something like, "Lyra wished she could ask Pan" because she thought he'd know or be able to explain it to her. I think it may have been in reference to that marzipan story and that new way of looking at Will that she'd suddenly discovered.

You're right about Mrs. Coulter and Lord Asriel. Stelmaria lets out low rumbles in her throat when he and Mrs. Coulter are talking in TAS, and I take that as a warning to Asriel not to let Mrs. Coulter have her power over him. Stelmaria can see the truth of his attraction to her even if he can't himself.

Of course, an animal of any age can cry out and yelp, and Pantalaimon would be feeling the same distress Lyra was feeling whether he was a year old in mental age or twenty. However, I somehow can’t see a Pan capable of higher thought not being so active in comforting Lyra and soothing her worries. Pan does, after all, suppress his own feelings of being betrayed and hurt beyond measure when Lyra leaves him on the shores of the suburbs of the dead, in order to prevent her from feeling worse: “And he knew that if he spoke, she wouldn’t be able to resist; so the daemon held himself quiet so as not to distress the human who was abandoning him…” (TAS, 284)

No he doesn't. He realises that she must do what she is doing, but later, almost like a petulant child, he punishes her. He takes ages to go back to her, even though it is hurting him too just so that he can pay her back for leaving him.

As for physical age, part of the answer may lie in the description of Sophonax, Farder Coram’s daemon. Whether it’s common that the appearance of a daemon doesn’t age with the appearance of its human or not, it is clear that Sophonax is not as aged or decrepit as Farder Coram. Page 142 of The Golden Compass has the excerpt “Sophonax was as sleek and healthy and beautiful as Farder Coram was ravaged and weak.”

I think that's supposed to show that Farder Coram's mind was still sleek and healthy, which it was. daemons are a reflection of their human's mind, not their body.

So I guess that's what I think, if the person is developed mentally then the daemon will reflect that. For example, some babies understand more than they can speak because they haven't got to grips with their voice-boxes yet and in that case I think the daemon will be able to talk more than the human.

I think the difference between a human and their daemon is more one of personality. Lyra is full of petulance, cheekiness and untruth-telling, whereas Pantalaimon is her more responsible side who tries to keep her in check somewhat. Thus he appears more mature. It's equally conceivable that someone could be the other way around completely - with their daemon urging them go on, burn it..

I think there is no true answer, daemons are as varied as humans are. However I do think that as your 'wisdom', if you will, they mature much faster than their humans, so a girl at age 11 would have a daemon much wiser and more adult than she is, however when you are as wise as Farder Coram, your daemon would be equal to you.
I noticed that both Salamakia and the golden monkey seemed to be wiser than Lord Asriel and Mrs Coutler.

I agree with moonflash.

Although The mental age of your daemon, personally, depends on the persons personality. Pantalimion is in some ways mature because Lyra is in some ways immature.

Am I the only person who finds Hermit's avatar a midgeon offensive?


I've thought about the daemon age thing too - partly in the context of who you'd have voicing Pantalaimon in a film. In audio adaptations they've certainly given him an adult voice (though that of quite a young man, I think).

I somehow feel a personality just a few years older than Lyra is appropriate. He's fallible too...

but this is all tied up with what exactly daemons know, where they come from. Lyra says Pan is 'supposed to know about conscience and stuff' but is this true - do daemons arrive with some sort of inbuilt Jiminy Cricket wisdom or is it just a belief in Lyra's world.

As for forms... it's true, I always imagine Pan's forms as adult even though Lyra isn't, apart from that mention of the baby Lyra where I imagine a baby Pan. Oh, and there's the scen in the land of the dead where he becomes something ;very young, a puppy or cub' so maybe these things are flexible?

As for forms... it's true, I always imagine Pan's forms as adult even though Lyra isn't, apart from that mention of the baby Lyra where I imagine a baby Pan.

Yeah, me too. Since daemons reflect the mental state of their humans more than the physical state (like Sophie said with Farder Coram), then I imagine they would take the form of a baby animal when their owners are babies. It just seems too odd to think of a baby Lyra with a full grown cat-shaped Pantalaimon beside her. But since animals mature physically quicker than humans, daemons would assume an adult form earlier than humans. So even though Lyra and the other children in HDM are young in human years, their daemons are physically speaking adults.

Pantalaimon does appear to be more mature than Lyra but I think that's just because he reflects the more responsible aspect of her personality. daemons' roles are to guide their humans anyway, so this makes sense.

daemons' roles are to guide their humans anyway, so this makes sense.

I'm not sure if that's true. The golden monkey, (nice and sinister that its unnamed) doesn't seem more mature than Mrs.Coulter. It urges her against her better judgement like in the cave with Lyra. I think of daemons as sort of the real essence of their humans so daemons express their bodies subconcious personalities. I think Lyra has always been mature in a real way and Pan reveals that. And I'm sure Mrs.Coulter would love to pull the wings off some bats which is why the monkey does it

So I think daemons look and are as old and smart as you are deep down, and will grow in wisdom if you do

No he doesn't. He realises that she must do what she is doing, but later, almost like a petulant child, he punishes her. He takes ages to go back to her, even though it is hurting him too just so that he can pay her back for leaving him.

Later's the key word in your statement. Yes, later he stays away to punish her. At that particular moment I mentioned, however, he does stop himself from fully expressing his emotions because he knows it will make it that much harder on her and convince her not to go. He could easily have played her (and I suppose by connection, his own) emotions and asked the question it specifically says he wouldn't ask: "Do you love Roger more than you love me?"

I think that's supposed to show that Farder Coram's mind was still sleek and healthy, which it was. daemons are a reflection of their human's mind, not their body.

I like that explanation. It fits well with a description of Pan in the same excerpt in which Sophomax is explained in detail: "When Pantalaimon was a cat, he lean and ragged and harsh..." (142) Lyra's mind is quite like that in many scenes in TGC in particular.

I think the daemons develop the same as the human, if the human is a early developer, as in they learn to speak at a early age, are very bright, etc, then the daemon is the same. And what about people with mental and physical dissailities? I think with the mental dissailities the daemon would have the same ones, but not necessarily with physical ones.

Well, I don't undertand hermit's avatar, so I can't really find it offensive.

I think that while you are a child, your daemon is completely fluid and variable, and while they can change dramatically (like Pan becoming the pup in the land of the dead), they still seem to act as the 'better judgement' of their humans. But when you become adult, you have more control over your daemon, even if they are still wiser than you. This would reflect adults having power over their own lives, even if they may do irrational things, while children are usually controlled and wiser people teach them what to do.

However when Lyra left Pan and went to the land of the dead, this is cleary a representation of an initiation rite. The child leaves her childhood behind, the same as the witches did. She was already past childhood at this point, and Pantalaimon listened to her feelings and protected her interests by keeping quiet and hiding his feelings.

thing is, maybe he merely chose to punish her for leaving him when he did, because he knew there wasn't a huge never-before-done task depending on his ability to make mature decisions. he'd already done the right thing once, and this time it wasn't absolutely necessary for him to go back to her immediately even though it would benefit them both. shows lyra's stubbornness through-and-through. daemons as a physical representation of the mental state is probably a better analysis than the one i originally thought, which was that your daemon is more of a complement to make you a whole person - this only works sometimes though because although pantalaimon often is the mature complement to lyra's irrational side, they sometimes are both the same, like in the land of the dead when she's leaving him.

hey, i'd have punished her too! i don't blame pan, and how do you not get hermits avatar? what's that got to do with this anywyas...?

For all I know, it's some sort of greek letter (I think) and Dyke. I get the 'just do her' bit.
I apologise for my ignorance, for me modern culture is something that happened to other people. Except computers. For other people, computers are something that happened to me...

It's a play on this:

When I was wet behind the ears I had a T-shirt with the 'tick' with the legend "CLASS WAR - JUST DO IT"

T-shirt. Backwards nike tick. Caption equalled 'Just did it'

Just some more proof:
(and no, this is not thread necrophilia!):

...and both young daemons, changing flick-flick-flick...

Yes, there is obviously some difference in daemons with age.[/quote]

Hmm... Mental age of dæmons, I think, depends on the dæmon themself. A dæmon would be as individual as the human, ergo, is it not possible to have an immature dæmon? A dæmon to an extent balances the human's traits. What if the human was respectable and responsible? The balance would be an immature dæmon, would it not? I believe it would vary from person to person and dæmon to dæmon.